I apologize if this has been hashed out before but I'm curious if I'm too old fashion in using a manual powder throw and then topping charge off with a trickler. I want = or < .1 grain accuracy. I see quite a few Charge Masters listed for sale and I wonder if it's because they are inherently slower than my process or if reloaders are upgrading. I see they take roughly 20-30 seconds to dispense a charge and I'm curious if the $300-$400 cost is worth the convenience with no appreciable gain in speed. Thanks!
Charge Master or manual powder throw?
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Jager
Gold $$ Contributor
Manual powder throws can work very well with ball powders and similar small-grain powders that meter well. With good technique they are both very quick and very accurate.
The strength of the Chargemaster will increasingly show itself as powders become larger in kernel size and shape. It gives you reliable .1 grain accuracy, at the cost of speed. It's never going to be as fast as a manual powder throw.
That all said, an accurate, reliable digital scale like the Chargemaster is a beautiful thing. And it can do more than just dispense powder.
I can never see myself going back to the 10-10 scale, manual trickler, and Uniflow Powder Measure that were part and parcel of my handloading world for so many years.
Thank goodness for technological progress!
The strength of the Chargemaster will increasingly show itself as powders become larger in kernel size and shape. It gives you reliable .1 grain accuracy, at the cost of speed. It's never going to be as fast as a manual powder throw.
That all said, an accurate, reliable digital scale like the Chargemaster is a beautiful thing. And it can do more than just dispense powder.
I can never see myself going back to the 10-10 scale, manual trickler, and Uniflow Powder Measure that were part and parcel of my handloading world for so many years.
Thank goodness for technological progress!
SSL
Gold $$ Contributor
I agree with Jager. I don't load for competition, but I do like consistent loads. As for the speed; I set my Chargemaster to auto dispense and am inserting and seating bullets into a case as the powder runs for the next. Slightly slower than running an entire tray of brass under a manual dispenser of course, but not so much as to be a deal breaker. I'm one of the lucky ones who hasn't (so far) had a problem with drift or erratic weights. I use mostly spherical type powders and the process is relatively fast and accurate. When I do see weight variances it is usually when using stick powders, since one or two grains of powder falling out or not can make the difference in over or under weights when trying to hit that perfect weight.
I owned Lyman gen6. Luckily I did have opportunity to sell it away, now I go with Redding BR-30, Hornady Quick Trickle and Hornady M2 Bench Scale.
I know that Chargemaster is better than Lyman but after disappointments with it I decided that going with manual dispenser, trickler and scale is best solution for me.
I know that Chargemaster is better than Lyman but after disappointments with it I decided that going with manual dispenser, trickler and scale is best solution for me.
topclass2017
Gold $$ Contributor
have been using chargemaster for a number of years now and have generally been been pleased. It performs better with some powders than others. In a quest for tighter ES and SD in my loads I am going to use it to throw a charge to within .5-1 grain, then will trickle up and a dedicated more precise digital scale. An extra step? for sure. But as is said, inquiring minds want to know.
Juppe12-That was my concern, especially seeing the amount of digital dispensers being listed on various forums and Midway dropping their price. Since apparently I can program it to dispense during seating, it still might be worth delving into 21st century reloading. It sounds like quite a few of you folks are happy with them. Thanks again to all of your responses. Great community!
243Lapua
Silver $$ Contributor
Get both! My setup is 2 modified and reprogrammed Chargemasters for extruded powder going at the same time. 2 Harrels for ball powder for pistol or rifle cartridge especially for my 6ppc. Yep some buddies think I'm nuts for having to many dispenser for different powders.
Forgot about my vintage Lyman 55 with the Culver type bottle attachment. Pretty accurate with N133
Forgot about my vintage Lyman 55 with the Culver type bottle attachment. Pretty accurate with N133
I throw then trickle up for well metering powders. For stick powders the Charge Master is great, especially when loading in bulk for my AR where 0.1 gr accuracy is plenty good enough.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
All of my friends who use Chargemasters seem to be pleased with them. Generally they use auto dispense and seat a bullet while the next charge is being dispensed. This can be speeded up by using two charge pans that have been matched for weight, setting one on as the other is removed. For those that my not have kept up, the latest version the Chargemaster Supreme, is supposed to be significantly faster than earlier versions.
I have the first gen Chargemaster and it is nowhere near .1 grain accurate. It may read that it is throwing within .1 grains, but I actually weighed the charges it threw on a Sartorius Entris scale. The Chargemaster was actually closer to +/- .2 grains.
That level of accuracy is okay for 30-06 capacity case and up, and maybe even down to .308 capacity cases in a non-accuracy competition setting.
However, with small cases and high accuracy requirements, a Chargemaster doesn't cut it. I would use a balance beam before I'd use a Chargemaster. A tuned balance beam can get to a kernel or two accuracy.
For my 6 BRA, I test loads at .2 grain increments. I use an AutoTrickler/ Autothrow on an A&D FX-120i. This setup is fast and accurate to the kernel. If I was budget limited I would by the A&D scale and then manually scoop or throw them trickle.
My Chargemaster has been gathering dust ever since I got the Autotrickler.
That level of accuracy is okay for 30-06 capacity case and up, and maybe even down to .308 capacity cases in a non-accuracy competition setting.
However, with small cases and high accuracy requirements, a Chargemaster doesn't cut it. I would use a balance beam before I'd use a Chargemaster. A tuned balance beam can get to a kernel or two accuracy.
For my 6 BRA, I test loads at .2 grain increments. I use an AutoTrickler/ Autothrow on an A&D FX-120i. This setup is fast and accurate to the kernel. If I was budget limited I would by the A&D scale and then manually scoop or throw them trickle.
My Chargemaster has been gathering dust ever since I got the Autotrickler.
CharlieNC
Gold $$ Contributor
Manual trickling using a tuned beam and a video cam gives +/-0.05 grains for me. The CM does the same after slowing the trickling stage and insuring no vibration at that stage. So seating while the CM is running speeds up the process.
While the CM display is in 0.1gr increments, it appears the electronics have higher resolution. And it seems there are algorithms for auto zero before every charge, and no roundoff, to provide stability. The key is to insure there is no vibration during final trickling, and no clumps.
While the CM display is in 0.1gr increments, it appears the electronics have higher resolution. And it seems there are algorithms for auto zero before every charge, and no roundoff, to provide stability. The key is to insure there is no vibration during final trickling, and no clumps.
Herzo
Silver $$ Contributor
My Ohaus 5-10 balance along with my Hornady trickler and thrower works very well. I can set my thrower to be within 0.2 grains under my (40.0 grain) target and trickle as required. The trick is to charge the case and immediately drop the next charge allowing the balance to settle while I seat the bullet. I then trickle as required for the next charge. The process works with minimal wait time.
Jager
Gold $$ Contributor
Regarding the accuracy of the Chargemaster, sometime back I did a quick test of my CM 1500, using my A&D FX-120i as the reference.
The Chargemaster actually acquits itself pretty well. Of 26 charges thrown, only one – the 10.72 gr charge in the third group – was outside its 0.1 grain spec, and that just barely. The average throws are very close to the target weight. And the standard deviation isn’t bad.
How about with a cartridge of higher capacity, using an extruded powder?
Again, the Chargemaster does a pretty good job. Out of 20 charges thrown, only one – the 34.12 gr in the last group – is slightly out of spec.
I think the Chargemaster does quite well, living up to its promises. I still use mine occasionally. Especially with larger capacity cartridges where a charge variation of some hundredths of a grain isn’t going to make much difference; or with loads where less precision is required.
One last twist, though… those of us who use QuickLoad know that you can (and should) tweak the Burning Rate factor in that software to dial in the particular powder lot you’re using. What I’ll do as I run near the end of a current lot of powder is build a handful of rounds of a known load, using known primer and brass, using the old powder; then load an equivalent number of rounds using the new lot of powder. Setting off those two groups in front of a chronograph will then give me a quick baseline of where the new powder sits vis-à-vis the old lot.
But if you’re using QuickLoad to evaluate chamber pressures, you need a fair bit of precision. So when I’m running that old/new powder exercise I’ll demand that all charges be within three ticks of the highest precision that the FX-120i is capable of – either dead-on, or 0.02 grain under, or 0.02 grain over.
With that in mind, I set up the Chargemaster to throw those requisite charges – five of the old, five of the new – and set to seeing how many throws it would take…
Looked at one way, this test is entirely unfair to the Chargemaster. RCBS has never claimed anything other than 0.1 grain precision for that scale. Holding it to an accuracy level of 0.04 grains seems a very high bar, indeed. And yet the Chargemaster hit that level on ten out of 27 throws.
I’d call that good.
The bottom line for me is that precision and accuracy are addictive. You'll rarely see me using anything other than my A&D FX-120i and AutoTrickler combination. Pry it from my cold, dead hands and all that.
But if I had to, I could see myself going back to my Chargemaster. If I did, I would be entirely confident of the charges I was loading.
What won't ever happen is me going back to that old 10-10 scale of mine. Doesn't mean I didn't love the countless hours, over many years, I spent in front of it. But some things are best left as a happy memory.
YMMV.
The Chargemaster actually acquits itself pretty well. Of 26 charges thrown, only one – the 10.72 gr charge in the third group – was outside its 0.1 grain spec, and that just barely. The average throws are very close to the target weight. And the standard deviation isn’t bad.
How about with a cartridge of higher capacity, using an extruded powder?
Again, the Chargemaster does a pretty good job. Out of 20 charges thrown, only one – the 34.12 gr in the last group – is slightly out of spec.
I think the Chargemaster does quite well, living up to its promises. I still use mine occasionally. Especially with larger capacity cartridges where a charge variation of some hundredths of a grain isn’t going to make much difference; or with loads where less precision is required.
One last twist, though… those of us who use QuickLoad know that you can (and should) tweak the Burning Rate factor in that software to dial in the particular powder lot you’re using. What I’ll do as I run near the end of a current lot of powder is build a handful of rounds of a known load, using known primer and brass, using the old powder; then load an equivalent number of rounds using the new lot of powder. Setting off those two groups in front of a chronograph will then give me a quick baseline of where the new powder sits vis-à-vis the old lot.
But if you’re using QuickLoad to evaluate chamber pressures, you need a fair bit of precision. So when I’m running that old/new powder exercise I’ll demand that all charges be within three ticks of the highest precision that the FX-120i is capable of – either dead-on, or 0.02 grain under, or 0.02 grain over.
With that in mind, I set up the Chargemaster to throw those requisite charges – five of the old, five of the new – and set to seeing how many throws it would take…
Looked at one way, this test is entirely unfair to the Chargemaster. RCBS has never claimed anything other than 0.1 grain precision for that scale. Holding it to an accuracy level of 0.04 grains seems a very high bar, indeed. And yet the Chargemaster hit that level on ten out of 27 throws.
I’d call that good.
The bottom line for me is that precision and accuracy are addictive. You'll rarely see me using anything other than my A&D FX-120i and AutoTrickler combination. Pry it from my cold, dead hands and all that.
But if I had to, I could see myself going back to my Chargemaster. If I did, I would be entirely confident of the charges I was loading.
What won't ever happen is me going back to that old 10-10 scale of mine. Doesn't mean I didn't love the countless hours, over many years, I spent in front of it. But some things are best left as a happy memory.
YMMV.
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