Chamber spec for heavy bullets in a .223 - 600 yard plinker project.

[S11033]

Hey guys,

I'm a gun evangelist living behind enemy lines. I love taking my anti-gun friends to the range to teach them how to shoot, and in the process exorcize their irrational fear of guns. I've found that after our first outing with a .22LR and 5.56 AR, they really enjoy shooting out at distance, and I want to save the barrel on the 6 Creedmoor RPR that I shoot in matches.

I want to build a 600 yard-capable plinker, and would like the ability to shoot heavy-for-caliber bullets in the 75-90gr range. I mostly shoot inexpensive Hornady stuff, and like the idea of shooting 88gr ELDMs at around 2700 fps from a 26" barrel. I have piles of LC brass, and have read a post by a High Master saying that it's capable of about .5 MOA, even when unsorted.

I'm planning to use a Savage 10 SA or Savage Axis as a donor, and feed it from AI .223 mags, which I understand will allow a COAL of about 2.55". (Please correct me if I'm wrong here.)

Would a .223 Wylde chamber have a long enough throat to seat an 88gr ELDM out far enough to push it to 2700? If not, how about a 5.56 chamber? If that's still not enough, I'd appreciate some pointers on what kind of velocity I might reasonably expect from that bullet out of a 26" barrel. I'm also totally open to suggestions on inexpensive and readily available bullets that are capable of getting out to 600 comfortably without getting blown around like crazy on a reasonably calm day.

Separately, I'm thinking about setting the chamber of my 6CM back and rechambering it to 6BR given that I very rarely get to shoot out past 1000. But I really like the idea of using my dime-a-dozen LC brass for this plinking / teaching rifle.

Thanks!

Lawndart

 

[karrarararararar]

For a 600 yard gun, the 80gr bullets are pretty hard to beat. I bet the 75gr ELD-M would work great if you want to stick to hornardy. I think you'd need a bit more freebore for the 88's.

 

[S11033]

For a 600 yard gun, the 80gr bullets are pretty hard to beat. I bet the 75gr ELD-M would work great if you want to stick to hornardy. I think you'd need a bit more freebore for the 88's.

I spent some time playing on Ballistic AE and think the 75gr ELDM would actually be a very solid option. At .467 G1 (advertised), and conservative 2800 fps it outperforms an 88gr ELDM at an optimistic 2700 fps. It goes subsonic at 1125 yards vs 1050, and drifts 18” vs 20” at 600 with a 10 mph cross wind. That’s only about 4” more than my 6 Creed 105gr BTHP (.530 G1) at 3000 fps. I expect barrel life would be better than with the heavier 88gr ELDM, and freaking stellar compared to what I’ve got in the 6 Creed.

I should be able to come up with a load that works well with a standard throat, and a side benefit is that I might even be able to pick up a decent factory rifle that suits it well. Would a 1:9 twist be enough, or do I really need 1:8? Either way, I’d have a lot more options for factory rifles than a 1:7 would give me.

It would let me compete in the Tactical class. Fortunately I’m bad enough that I wouldn’t be any less competitive with a .223 than with a .308

I really appreciate your suggestion on that weight class of bullets. I haven’t really crunched numbers on any intermediate calibers aside from 6ARC, and it’s been really eye-opening to see the potential in the 75gr!

Lawndart

 

[sneakboxer]

I think Karar nailed it. 75-82gr shoot really well in the service rifle world at 600. In my Wylde chamber (White Oak) for example 80gr VLDs touch at 2.470 and 80gr SMKs touch at 2.499 and I can get around 2700fps out of a 20in 1:7 barrel. As for the twist I think 1:8 would be fine. I practice with 52s and have had no issues over spinnng them in the same barrel. There are a lot of options for bullets and powders that work well. For 600y it is a pretty cheap option for what you are looking to do. Sure there are bigger and better chamberings but at the expense of recoil, cost and increased cost.

 

[S11033]

Awesome, thanks a lot guys!

I agree that a straight .223 or .223 Wylde will be a good fit for my goals. Realistically, 75% of my shooting will be at 200 yards, since shooting from the 600 line is a bit of a hassle at my range, and 200 will be plenty challenging enough for most of my friends that I bring. But having a fun gun that's capable from 600 without feeling like I'm burning valuable barrel life will probably entice me to shoot from back there more often and work on my wind-reading abilities.

Now, in the interest of keeping the setup inexpensive, I need to find the best alternative in terms of value. I'm tempted to just pick up a Savage Axis II Precision, as it seems hard to beat in terms of value and comes with a 1:7 22" barrel. I could also start with a Ruger American Predator with its 1:8 22" (lighter) barrel and put it in a Magpul Hunter stock.

I've heard Howas shoot fantastically, but I'm worried my COAL with 75gr ELDMs might be too long for their barreled actions. I did find a top-feeding bottom metal setup from Oregunsmithing that may allow up to 2.45". I'm not philosophically opposed to top-feeding, as I realistically won't compete with this setup, but I do understand the added versatility of DBMs. Open to input on the Howa option!

I've been wanting to try Primary Arms' new 4-16x44 and think it would be a good high-value match for the capabilities and intended role of the rifle.

Lawndart

 

[Ned Ludd]

The advantage in wind deflection of the 85-95 gr heavy bullets over lighter options in .223 Rem is significant...but only if the rifle is set up properly to take advantage of their higher BCs. That generally means a 28"+ barrel length and a freebore length of as much as .200" (or more). A Wylde chamber is not going to allow loading 88 ELDMs optimally, not even close. The 88s are pretty long (BTO) and ideally, a freebore length in the neighborhood of 0.250" would be optimal. Without a 28"+ barrel length and very long freebore, it is generally not possible to get the most out of the 85+ gr .224" bullets due to excessive pressure and [relatively] low velocity. Likewise, loads for a rifle that has been optimized for these heavy bullets typically come in at COLs of ~2.6"+, and will not feed from most unmodified magazines. Thus, a rifle really needs to be set up exclusively to shoot the 85+ gr bullets and will not be optimized/useful for much else.

 

[S11033]

The advantage in wind deflection of the 85-95 gr heavy bullets over lighter options in .223 Rem is significant...but only if the rifle is set up properly to take advantage of their higher BCs. That generally means a 28"+ barrel length and a freebore length of as much as .200" (or more). A Wylde chamber is not going to allow loading 88 ELDMs optimally, not even close. The 88s are pretty long (BTO) and ideally, a freebore length in the neighborhood of 0.250" would be optimal. Without a 28"+ barrel length and very long freebore, it is generally not possible to get the most out of the 85+ gr .224" bullets due to excessive pressure and [relatively] low velocity. Likewise, loads for a rifle that has been optimized for these heavy bullets typically come in at COLs of ~2.6"+, and will not feed from most unmodified magazines.

Thank you very much for the concrete numbers, this is super useful for future reference. I'm starting to like the idea of being able to buy a factory rifle. I also like the idea of having a standard chamber that can shoot lighter bullets well and super inexpensively at 200 yards, which is realistically where this rifle will get shot the most.

For shooting that requires higher BCs, I've got a few AR uppers in 6ARC (12.5", 20", and 24"), that I think would perform very nicely at 600. Brass has been hard to find, but I will accrue more as it becomes available. Based on your post, I think the 6ARC is a more elegant solution for higher BC than a highly-specialized .223 built around the 88gr ELDM.

Lawndart

 

[SecondsCount]

The 75 ELD was a good suggestion. I'm running a 7 twist 24" Krieger and it shoots the 75 ELD and 77 SMK like a dream. I'm not pushing them hard, just over 2750 FPS.

 

[Greg Y]

I'm pushing the 70rdf at 2940 in a 223ai. Our range goes to 2k. My 223ai is out of breath after the 1150 mark.

 

[S11033]

Thanks for that, I'll probably end up with a pretty tame load as well, since the goal is fun, inexpensive shooting.

I just found out from someone on the SH forum that the Ruger American bolt will fit in the RPR. For under $500, I could theoretically buy a RAP with a CHF 22" 1:8 barrel that's known to be fairly decent, and slap that right into my RPR. That would save me from having to buy another scope or chassis. I'm going to do some research and find out if anyone is running an RPR as a switch-barrel setup.

My next project would be to SBR the RAP receiver and turn a 12.5" 300 BLK barrel for it

 

[SecondsCount]

I would buy a quality barrel from one of the top makers before taking my chances on a Ruger factory barrel. Some shoot well but the one I had didn't. ~2 MOA on a good day.

 

[Walt Krafft]

I would get an upper from White Oak and build a lower to put it on. It will be planty accurate out of the box and not cost much more than buying a new bolt gun and rebarreling and bedding it to get it to shoot.

 

[SteveOak]

You could take a dummy cartridge with the bullet you want to shoot to your gunsmith when you have the barrel chambered. That will allow him to throat your barrel for the bullet you want.

 

[CharlieNC]

A savage with a decent prefit barrel will do well. A Criterion 8 twist with a rem match chamber, or barrel from urbanrifleman will do well. The Hornady 75 Amax has performed well for me out to 1200yd steel targets. All cost effective!

 

[boltfluter]

The Howa barreled actions are very nice and a great value, if you decide to go that route.
Paul

 

[S11033]

I would buy a quality barrel from one of the top makers before taking my chances on a Ruger factory barrel. Some shoot well but the one I had didn't. ~2 MOA on a good day.

Dang, that sucks. Most of the reviews I've read put it easily under MOA with match ammo or quality reloads. This is a dumb question, but did you ensure your barrel wasn't contacting the channel? I've read the stocks are very flimsy and don't tolerate any bipod loading at all. Do you still have the rifle? Asking because I'll need a bolt either way if I go the Ruger/RPR switch-barrel route instead of Howa dedicated.

I would get an upper from White Oak and build a lower to put it on. It will be planty accurate out of the box and not cost much more than buying a new bolt gun and rebarreling and bedding it to get it to shoot.

I think an AR would limit me to a different class of projectiles, with BCs below .4 G1. If I went with an AR, I'd probably just hunt harder for 6ARC brass and use the several uppers I already have in that caliber. This may be the right answer, but I still like the idea of using cheap LC brass and different 5.56 projectiles for different roles.

You could take a dummy cartridge with the bullet you want to shoot to your gunsmith when you have the barrel chambered. That will allow him to throat your barrel for the bullet you want.

Wish I had anyone local... I live in Boston and it's slim pickings. Having said that, a standard .223 Rem or .223 Wylde chamber sounds ideal, as it would let me shoot cheap 55 and 62gr bullets out to 200 yards without having to worry about excessive jump.

A savage with a decent prefit barrel will do well. A Criterion 8 twist with a rem match chamber, or barrel from urbanrifleman will do well. The Hornady 75 Amax has performed well for me out to 1200yd steel targets. All cost effective!

Yeah, I'd definitely take that approach if I were building this as a primary rifle for myself, but for its intended role, I think that would be a bit overkill... At around $400 for just the barrel, I think I'd rather pick up a Howa for just a little more.

The Howa barreled actions are very nice and a great value, if you decide to go that route.
Paul

I'm really intrigued by them. I did a bunch of reading on them yesterday and am a bit enamored with some features of the design. Do you have any input on how usable the Hogue stocks are? If they're not trash, it could be a really cost-effective option. I'd probably want to install a hinged floorplate for the extra COAL to 2.45". I've heard the magazines really suck.

 

[Dgd6mm]

The Bergara Premier HMR PRO.223 is nice. The only thing is it's a 20" barrel. It takes AI type mags.

 

[S11033]

The Bergara Premier HMR PRO.223 is nice. The only thing is it's a 20" barrel. It takes AI type mags.

It looks nice, but just too expensive for what I need in this. Also, I can’t have nice things

 

[Jeff Porter]

I have a Wylde chambered 26” Kreiger 1:7 gas gun that shoots anything from 52’s on the short lines to 88’s at long range. 75 VLD and 80.5 Berger’s will do what you want at 600

 

[boltfluter]

Dang, that sucks. Most of the reviews I've read put it easily under MOA with match ammo or quality reloads. This is a dumb question, but did you ensure your barrel wasn't contacting the channel? I've read the stocks are very flimsy and don't tolerate any bipod loading at all. Do you still have the rifle? Asking because I'll need a bolt either way if I go the Ruger/RPR switch-barrel route instead of Howa dedicated.

I think an AR would limit me to a different class of projectiles, with BCs below .4 G1. If I went with an AR, I'd probably just hunt harder for 6ARC brass and use the several uppers I already have in that caliber. This may be the right answer, but I still like the idea of using cheap LC brass and different 5.56 projectiles for different roles.

Wish I had anyone local... I live in Boston and it's slim pickings. Having said that, a standard .223 Rem or .223 Wylde chamber sounds ideal, as it would let me shoot cheap 55 and 62gr bullets out to 200 yards without having to worry about excessive jump.

Yeah, I'd definitely take that approach if I were building this as a primary rifle for myself, but for its intended role, I think that would be a bit overkill... At around $400 for just the barrel, I think I'd rather pick up a Howa for just a little more.

I'm really intrigued by them. I did a bunch of reading on them yesterday and am a bit enamored with some features of the design. Do you have any input on how usable the Hogue stocks are? If they're not trash, it could be a really cost-effective option. I'd probably want to install a hinged floorplate for the extra COAL to 2.45". I've heard the magazines really suck.

In my personal opinion, you would want to upgrade from the Hogue stock.
Paul