cfe223 v ar-comp for 223 & 308

[loki3640]

Hello,
I am having a hard time trying to find out which powder is best to use for the 308 at 600yd competition, i recently practiced with 10shells loaded with cfe223 168grn bthp/speer match & 10shells ar-comp 168grn bthp/speer at 300yd. the only diff i seen at ea target (1" org shoot-n-c) was that the cfe223 loads had slightly closer shot groups. i used a bipod with a back rest, prone position 3-12x swift scope. (cheapy scope for now). rifle is a 16" barrel, gunsite scout/ruger 1-11 twist i believe. out of the 4 targets i shot at (5 rds each) 2 cfe shots hit org bull and 1 ar-comp hit org bull, (although 1 arcomp shot touch the edge of org bull). so, i am wondering if anyone else did anykind of comparison since both powders are kinda new from my understanding? i have been reading that h4895 and/or imr4895 may be better to use for long distance shooting, is this true? :-\

 

[mao0720]

Loki,
Welcome to the board and I hope this reply helps. It is not just as simple as "which powder is best for long range". For one, each bullet, case, powder, primer combo will need to be tuned. You cant just assume that if one load shot bad that, that powder wont work. You need to play around with charge weight, and see what happens. Generally you will find a "node" or a sweet spot as you start to work up a load from minimum charge weight to maximum. I start by loading 5 round of each from min to max in .5 gr intervals. Groups, or more specificly will, vertical spread will get better, then worse as you move into and out of the "node". Once you find a general node you will want to play with a powder a little more. Start with about .3 gr under where you saw your node appear and load groups of five in .1gr incraments up to .3 gr above where you initially saw the node. When you find a charge that is in the node and shooting well, without showing signs of pressure, then it is time to play with other variables like seating depth, adjust from in the lands to a jump in about .005 incraments. See what happens. May get worse, may get better. Any change, in bullet, brass, powder type, or primer type and you need to do the whole process over.
Now lets talk about your target. 2 touching the orange dot or 1 makes no difference, we need to know the total size of each group. Widest shot to widest shot, this is what you are trying to make smaller by adjusting your load, amongst other things. Then you adjust your Point of impact to hit the point of aim, or your orange dot.
Your rifle is not suited well for mid or long range shooting. A 16 in barrel is not enough to get the bullet going fast enough. That being said, enjoy it. Go out and shoot a few mid range comps with it and have fun, learn your gear, learn the wind. It will only make you a better shot. You may do better with heavier bullets like a 190-215gr as they will retain their velocity better and will deflect wind better than lighter weight bullets. YOU MUST WORK UP A NEW LOAD IF YOU SWITCH BULLETS. CHECK YOUR LOAD MANUAL AND START AT MINIMUM LOAD FOR YOUR POWDER AND BULLET AND WORK UP SAFELY!
As far as powder goes, generally faster burning powders for shorter barrels or lighter bullets, and slower powders for longer barrels and heavier bullets. So, 4895 is quite a bit faster than CFE, and I couldnt find AR comp in the burn rate chart. You very well may get better accuracy and velocity with 4895, then again you may not. Only one way to find out, and that is to test them. Sorry, no concrete answers here, I hope this helped.
GOOD LUCK AND LOAD AND SHOOT SAFELY, ALWAYS WORK UP YOUR LOADS FROM MINIMUM FOR YOUR POWDER AND BULLET BEING USED.

 

[mac86951]

Hello,
I am having a hard time trying to find out which powder is best to use for the 308 at 600yd competition, i recently practiced with 10shells loaded with cfe223 168grn bthp/speer match & 10shells ar-comp 168grn bthp/speer at 300yd. the only diff i seen at ea target (1" org shoot-n-c) was that the cfe223 loads had slightly closer shot groups. i used a bipod with a back rest, prone position 3-12x swift scope. (cheapy scope for now). rifle is a 16" barrel, gunsite scout/ruger 1-11 twist i believe. out of the 4 targets i shot at (5 rds each) 2 cfe shots hit org bull and 1 ar-comp hit org bull, (although 1 arcomp shot touch the edge of org bull). so, i am wondering if anyone else did anykind of comparison since both powders are kinda new from my understanding? i have been reading that h4895 and/or imr4895 may be better to use for long distance shooting, is this true? :-\

Its up to you to find out. There will be millions of opinions on here about which is best, and very little data to support it. I use CFE223, AR-Comp, IMR-4895, H4895, H335, IMR3031, N-140 and whatever else I can find locally. I compete with all of them. Given one specific moment and one set of constant conditions, the ideal powder will be the one that gives ideal velocity consistency given that the rest of the load is also ideal. Each bullet will have a range of best velocity and each barrel will to, so you have to match the bullet/barrel/powder for the given conditions.

My answer is subjective. The powder is only as accurate as you develop a load. On any given day with any given conditions each powder would be equally accurate given the equal development time. Over a dynamic day and conditions such as over a course of 1 year and various competitions, that is how you determine which powder is best. Theoretically a single-based powder is better for long-term, but this is highly subjective given that we can't control all of the parameters of accurate shooting for an entire season. If you have an accurate load, test it and retest it in many different conditions to see what it does. Some powders are temp sensitive and the shooter has different loads for different weather, others not so much.

I've had tight groups with N140, but I haven't shot year round with it. BLC(2) is very temp sensitive, and I don't like having different loads for different temps. AR-Comp I'm seemingly happy with but I have limited data. Varget is working consistently well year round. H4895 is too. I love CFE223 because it meters well, where Varget and AR-Comp I hand-trickle and weigh every round.

I'll go out on a limb and post what I've heard over and over in HP competition, at long-range a single-based extruded powder will perform consistently better than a ball powder (which all are double based that I know of). I don't use single-based powders, and I'll believe it after 20 more years of testing that theory, but I have yet to find a real way to prove or disprove it.

A chronograph is the next tool to determine your accurate load variances with a given powder.

-Mac

 

[mac86951]

Loki,
Welcome to the board and I hope this reply helps. It is not just as simple as "which powder is best for long range". For one, each bullet, case, powder, primer combo will need to be tuned. You cant just assume that if one load shot bad that, that powder wont work. You need to play around with charge weight, and see what happens. Generally you will find a "node" or a sweet spot as you start to work up a load from minimum charge weight to maximum. I start by loading 5 round of each from min to max in .5 gr intervals. Groups, or more specificly will, vertical spread will get better, then worse as you move into and out of the "node". Once you find a general node you will want to play with a powder a little more. Start with about .3 gr under where you saw your node appear and load groups of five in .1gr incraments up to .3 gr above where you initially saw the node. When you find a charge that is in the node and shooting well, without showing signs of pressure, then it is time to play with other variables like seating depth, adjust from in the lands to a jump in about .005 incraments. See what happens. May get worse, may get better. Any change, in bullet, brass, powder type, or primer type and you need to do the whole process over.
Now lets talk about your target. 2 touching the orange dot or 1 makes no difference, we need to know the total size of each group. Widest shot to widest shot, this is what you are trying to make smaller by adjusting your load, amongst other things. Then you adjust your Point of impact to hit the point of aim, or your orange dot.
Your rifle is not suited well for mid or long range shooting. A 16 in barrel is not enough to get the bullet going fast enough. That being said, enjoy it. Go out and shoot a few mid range comps with it and have fun, learn your gear, learn the wind. It will only make you a better shot. You may do better with heavier bullets like a 190-215gr as they will retain their velocity better and will deflect wind better than lighter weight bullets. YOU MUST WORK UP A NEW LOAD IF YOU SWITCH BULLETS. CHECK YOUR LOAD MANUAL AND START AT MINIMUM LOAD FOR YOUR POWDER AND BULLET AND WORK UP SAFELY!
As far as powder goes, generally faster burning powders for shorter barrels or lighter bullets, and slower powders for longer barrels and heavier bullets. So, 4895 is quite a bit faster than CFE, and I couldnt find AR comp in the burn rate chart. You very well may get better accuracy and velocity with 4895, then again you may not. Only one way to find out, and that is to test them. Sorry, no concrete answers here, I hope this helped.
GOOD LUCK AND LOAD AND SHOOT SAFELY, ALWAYS WORK UP YOUR LOADS FROM MINIMUM FOR YOUR POWDER AND BULLET BEING USED.

Haha, Ask a question like how to determine best powder, and I'd expect a few books to be published...

-Mac

 

[loki3640]

Well, thanks guys,

moa & mac that was a load of information and made alot more sense, looks like i'll be doing alot more shooting test to determine between these 2 powders in particular with my short barrel, at this time i'm very satisfied with this rifle just getting to know it better. i will take up on this advise and will also record the results of each 5 loads, charges, primers etc.

the cfe shots were alot tighter then the ar-comp groups, but i also contribute that to me, myself and i, performance. breathing, sight picture, trigger control etc.. i am much more use to benchrest, standing, and kneeling with the 223 than i am with the 308. due to military and police years of training. i can't seem to find that exact muscle memory comfort zone in the prone position with the rifle yet. although i found i like the bipod more than the sandbag at prone, but the bipod bounces alot more and i always have to readjust back into position again.

once again. thanks alot guys, 8) 8) 8)

 

[mac86951]

You're Welcome! Remember we're supposed to have fun! I tend to pick a range of average->Great accuracy loads and retest them each season change. (Maybe 100-150 rounds). Its great for practice, and lets me know how I am improving too. Ladder testing for the load, group testing for me.

-Mac

 

[mao0720]

Out of curiocity, what were your group sizes at 600yds with all of your loads? You may find that preloading your bipod, that is pushing forward to load tension into the bipod legs, takes a lot of the bounce out.

 

[loki3640]

MOA

for the ar-comp they were 3-4" apart and i pulled one high left.

with the cfe223 they were 2-3" apart, also with at least 1 flier upper right, very close around bull.

fliers were easily at least 6" away if not a little more. but i knew it was me as soon as i pulled the trigger.

 

[mao0720]

If your total group was only 2-3 or 3-4 in, not including your "called flyers" then dang, thats some good shooting. If you mean 2-4 in between each shot then thats a little closer to what I expected out of a 16 in barreled light weight rifle.

 

[mao0720]

Pictures of the targets would be worth 1000 words.

 

[Rtheurer]

Looking at Quickload, looks like AR Comp would be a great choice for a short barreled 308. It "should" get a good complete 100% burn in that 16" tube. That is if it shoots well with the other components you have chosen that is.

Some may think that a certain powder is "Dirty" vs another powder but have no idea how the burn caractristics of said powder in the subjected barrel length. Getting a 100% burn i would imagine give a cleaner apperance inside the bore.
Ill be doing a little testing this summer on this to prove to myself that is the case, or not.

Sorry got off topic. I have a new 20" 308 and it seems to shoot very well also. So now Im thinking maybe a 16 might be fun to own as well. After having all these 30 inchers its nice to pick up a short barrel from time to time.

RT

 

[mao0720]

I was just thinking that when I go to rebarrel my Savage 10 Tactical 308, that I will probably do a 20 or 22 in barrel and run some heavies out of it. Like the 208 Amax or the 215 burger. Whats the old adage, "slow and steady wins the race".

 

[mac86951]

I was just thinking that when I go to rebarrel my Savage 10 Tactical 308, that I will probably do a 20 or 22 in barrel and run some heavies out of it. Like the 208 Amax or the 215 burger. Whats the old adage, "slow and steady wins the race".

Go for a longer barrel if you can. You'd be happier running a 24 or 26" barrel for .308 with heavies to recover the lost velocity. The 168s and 155s can perform in a shorter barrel as you aren't too close to compressed loads, however, the heavier bullets can be the opposite of that. My 24" 30-06 works well, but it would love a 26" barrel.

Besides, if you don't like it, you can cut it shorter, but it don't grow back.
-Mac

 

[mao0720]

While the heavies will start slower they will retain more velocity at distance than lightweight bullets. Think of newtons laws and how mass affects the equation. It would take a greater force (resistance) to slow a heavy bullet to the same degree as lighter bullet. Think of it this way:
HEAVY BULLETS- START SLOW END SLOW
LIGHT BULLETS- START FAST END SLOWER

By the way, if I go to a 20-22in barrel it will not be on my FT/R rifle. It would be for hunting and Walk and Shoot tactical matches.

 

[mac86951]

While the heavies will start slower they will retain more velocity at distance than lightweight bullets. Think of newtons laws and how mass affects the equation. It would take a greater force (resistance) to slow a heavy bullet to the same degree as lighter bullet. Think of it this way:
HEAVY BULLETS- START SLOW END SLOW
LIGHT BULLETS- START FAST END SLOWER

By the way, if I go to a 20-22in barrel it will not be on my FT/R rifle. It would be for hunting and Walk and Shoot tactical matches.

Yea, the better BC helps in which the laws of physics are summed up into one coefficient. Heavy bullets like slower burning powders to keep velocity up and MAP in check. Slower powders make effective use for a longer barrel. For a walk-about rifle, a 20-22 makes perfect sense, as that barrel gets heavy quickly, but a fluted 24" vs a solid 22 I'd have to recommend the longer barrel. That said, a fluted 20" would be even lighter.

-Mac

 

[loki3640]

well thanks everyone, that's a lot of info to take in and for my next test i will do some of the advised test for the next 300 yrd practice. as for now i like this rifle, after taking some advise on how to use the bi-pod for the 600yrd shoot, my shots greatly improved. i managed a higher score and actually hit 3 X shots out of the 40 shots for score. also utilized a back rest for the butt stock and made my own cheek rest for the rifle, from the prone position it made alot of difference, my shoulder didn't hurt anymore . however, i learned another lesson during my practice shots. i crimped the bullets (168 grn speer bthp) and my shots went everywhere on the target, except where i was aiming, so, i tried the a-max hornady 168grn (not crimped) same gun powder (ar-comp) and the shots were right on target. so, i stuck with them throughout the rest of the shoot. when i explained my results to some of the other more experienced shooters of this sort of competition, they advised me not to crimp these bullets for a bolt action rifle. from my results, i was convinced not to anymore. i just followed the rcbs video that stated "u should crimp all bullets that u reload!" as for photos, next time i will take some and include them when i test the next batch. btw.... had a great day of sun and fun shooting that match this past saturday, thought i didn't do to bad for my 2nd time. scored 358 out of 400pts. would like to think i'm getting better at it, or i was just damn lucky. 8)