CFE 223 vs Varget

[bsekf]

Anybody substituted CFE 223 for Varget. How does the temp stability compare? Which is the most dense?

Bill

 

[otnot]

I tried it with 90gr bullets but I couldn't get it tuned in.

 

[JMayo]

I ran it with 6mm 105's in an 8T. I didn't see allot of difference on paper.
It was 100 faster on crono ... Very fine ground powder. I was told it comparable to ar comp by a very good shooter.

It was the way it stuck to the case mouth that made me search for something else. I spray one shot. The whole case mouth would line with powder. Pita.

Now that I've started using the N powders in my other rifles I'd find one of those that worked.

 

[White Eagle]

I use cfe 223 a lot in my 222 rem and my 224 Valkyrie
prefer this powder in those uses

 

[The Marshall]

CFE 223 with my 22-250 Rem and 52gn Nosler OTM bullets is nothing but consistent accuracy.

 

[clowdis]

When all these shortages ae over I think you'll see the demand for Varget take a big drop. Yes, it's a great powder but as most of us have found there are other powders that are just as good and even a few that are better. I won't go back to Varget in my Palma rifle now that I've found N140. CFE223 also works well in my .223 Palma rifle with 88 and 90 grain bullets.

 

[PracticalTactical]

When all these shortages ae over I think you'll see the demand for Varget take a big drop. Yes, it's a great powder but as most of us have found there are other powders that are just as good and even a few that are better. I won't go back to Varget in my Palma rifle now that I've found N140. CFE223 also works well in my .223 Palma rifle with 88 and 90 grain bullets.

Do you like N140 better in your 223 for 88s and 90s?

What is it that you find better about N140 over Varget? Faster speeds? Better temp stability? Lower velocity spreads? Other?

I was sold some N550 but don't like it at all for 223 or 308. I think its just too slow and more suitable to something like a 6x47L.

 

[clowdis]

Do you like N140 better in your 223 for 88s and 90s?

What is it that you find better about N140 over Varget? Faster speeds? Better temp stability? Lower velocity spreads? Other?

I was sold some N550 but don't like it at all for 223 or 308. I think its just too slow and more suitable to something like a 6x47L.

The N140 will give me better 1000 yard elevation spreads than Varget. Otherwise it's about the same in relation to numbers but may just a tick slower in speed (10fps). It is a bit more temperature sensitive than Varget but that is pretty easy to deal with, unlike what some shooters would have you believe. My load for the 155 bullet is 46.5 grains of either Varget or N140. I haven't had much luck with any of the 5 powders (540 or 550) in .223 or .308. I have been using N140 in my .223 but I'll probably go back to CFE after shortening the throat in my chamber thusly decreasing my case capacity.

 

[Laurie]

I was sold some N550 but don't like it at all for 223 or 308. I think its just too slow and more suitable to something like a 6x47L.

It's considerably slower burning than H. VarGet, but equally nowhere near the 4350s and similar which burning rate charts often show it close too. In the early days of 223 Rem use in Target Rifle / F-TR pioneered by Canadian competitors, N550 was popular with bullets heavier than 80gn. I've tried it with 90s in the 223 and MVs were high, but could never get consistency. It works well in 308 with bullets over 175gn, but so does the considerably milder single-based variant, N150, which replaced VarGet in this role for most Europeans years back when the 185gn Berger Juggernaut became the bullet to use (and later with 200s). Having said that, I know one UK former top F/TR competitor who shot nothing but the Berger 210gn LRBT over N550 in Lapua Palma SP brass until he retired a couple of years back over a 10 year or so span. Despite other people's opinions, not only were his results excellent, but his barrels lasted as many rounds as those of people shooting 185s and above using 'milder' powders.

When all these shortages ae over I think you'll see the demand for Varget take a big drop. Yes, it's a great powder but as most of us have found there are other powders that are just as good and even a few that are better. I won't go back to Varget in my Palma rifle now that I've found N140.

In the UK, we lost H4895, VarGet and all the other Hodgdon 'Extremes' a couple of years back thanks to regulatory changes (EU REACH initiative). However, we'd long been finding and using substitutes beforehand as this pair, H4350, H4831sc and some other Hodgdons had become so difficult to source, long long before the current shortages.

I've been running a series of tests and reports on alternatives to H4350 (done and published), VarGet (in progress) and H4831sc (to do) and writing them up in free ezine Target Shooter under the Reach-Out! name. VarGet/H4895 has just had part 2 published and part 3 which covers four Viht grades - N140, 150; N540, 550 will follow within the next few weeks. The test rifle is a 223 F-Class Savage PTA based job shooting Lapua brass and the 77gn SMK at a longer than SAAMI COAL.

http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=3811

Altogether well over 20 powders will be tried as alternatives to the Hodgdon pair, all available in the US bar IIRC four products. CFE-223 will be one of nine ball type powders sampled, but I've yet to load this one and range-test it.

 

[CharlieNC]

It's considerably slower burning than H. VarGet, but equally nowhere near the 4350s and similar which burning rate charts often show it close too. In the early days of 223 Rem use in Target Rifle / F-TR pioneered by Canadian competitors, N550 was popular with bullets heavier than 80gn. I've tried it with 90s in the 223 and MVs were high, but could never get consistency. It works well in 308 with bullets over 175gn, but so does the considerably milder single-based variant, N150, which replaced VarGet in this role for most Europeans years back when the 185gn Berger Juggernaut became the bullet to use (and later with 200s). Having said that, I know one UK former top F/TR competitor who shot nothing but the Berger 210gn LRBT over N550 in Lapua Palma SP brass until he retired a couple of years back over a 10 year or so span. Despite other people's opinions, not only were his results excellent, but his barrels lasted as many rounds as those of people shooting 185s and above using 'milder' powders.



In the UK, we lost H4895, VarGet and all the other Hodgdon 'Extremes' a couple of years back thanks to regulatory changes (EU REACH initiative). However, we'd long been finding and using substitutes beforehand as this pair, H4350, H4831sc and some other Hodgdons had become so difficult to source, long long before the current shortages.

I've been running a series of tests and reports on alternatives to H4350 (done and published), VarGet (in progress) and H4831sc (to do) and writing them up in free ezine Target Shooter under the Reach-Out! name. VarGet/H4895 has just had part 2 published and part 3 which covers four Viht grades - N140, 150; N540, 550 will follow within the next few weeks. The test rifle is a 223 F-Class Savage PTA based job shooting Lapua brass and the 77gn SMK at a longer than SAAMI COAL.

http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=3811

Altogether well over 20 powders will be tried as alternatives to the Hodgdon pair, all available in the US bar IIRC four products. CFE-223 will be one of nine ball type powders sampled, but I've yet to load this one and range-test it.

Laurie do you know what aspect of shooting those powders violates Reach?

 

[Laurie]

Laurie do you know what aspect of shooting those powders violates Reach?

It's various burn modifiers / additives that usually start with the letters 'DN' IIRC. In all cases, the amounts are tiny - 1% of total product weight or less. Some study, somewhere, will have labelled them carcinogens at some point.

In practice, all propellant manufacturers outside of the PRC and maybe Russian Federation will follow the Europeans as I'm pretty sure the US EPS will be looking at this issue too, and Australian forum members say that Thales / ADI which makes the Hodgdon 'Extreme' range is working now on 'green' versions to meet expected future regulatory changes.

 

[rfwind]

I have used some CFE 223 in my 223 for the first time with 69 SMK's and got good accuracy at 100 to 200 yards. When I cleaned my rifle after using CFE 223 I noticed a lot more carbon in the barrel than with RL 15 or Varget.

 

[Triple-D]

I started using CFE 223 in my .308 and .223 in place of Varget. I find I get a little higher velocity and about the same SD and accuracy as with the Varget out to 400 yards with my LR308. I hope to shoot at longer ranges in the next week or two.

 

[miningshawn]

I started using CFE223 a few years ago. The biggest reason was availability, but it has become a "go-to" powder for me in 68+ grain loads in 223 for a number of reasons.
1.) It flows like water - no more Varget overthrows and trickling
2.) It doesn't require a magnum primer to light it off
3.) No more compressed loads and hard seating
4.) It is less temp sensitive than I was led to believe
5.) I have (personally) observed less lot-to-lot variation than Varget
These are my observations, and I stand by them. CFE223 is a viable and good and obtainable replacement for Varget. I even use it in 30-30!

 

[Timon]

Not sure what you’re shooting, but have you considered Benchmark? Very stable powder, meters good. I’ve been using it with my 52’s for a while with very good results.

 

[Mulligan]

It's considerably slower burning than H. VarGet, but equally nowhere near the 4350s and similar which burning rate charts often show it close too. In the early days of 223 Rem use in Target Rifle / F-TR pioneered by Canadian competitors, N550 was popular with bullets heavier than 80gn. I've tried it with 90s in the 223 and MVs were high, but could never get consistency. It works well in 308 with bullets over 175gn, but so does the considerably milder single-based variant, N150, which replaced VarGet in this role for most Europeans years back when the 185gn Berger Juggernaut became the bullet to use (and later with 200s). Having said that, I know one UK former top F/TR competitor who shot nothing but the Berger 210gn LRBT over N550 in Lapua Palma SP brass until he retired a couple of years back over a 10 year or so span. Despite other people's opinions, not only were his results excellent, but his barrels lasted as many rounds as those of people shooting 185s and above using 'milder' powders.



In the UK, we lost H4895, VarGet and all the other Hodgdon 'Extremes' a couple of years back thanks to regulatory changes (EU REACH initiative). However, we'd long been finding and using substitutes beforehand as this pair, H4350, H4831sc and some other Hodgdons had become so difficult to source, long long before the current shortages.

I've been running a series of tests and reports on alternatives to H4350 (done and published), VarGet (in progress) and H4831sc (to do) and writing them up in free ezine Target Shooter under the Reach-Out! name. VarGet/H4895 has just had part 2 published and part 3 which covers four Viht grades - N140, 150; N540, 550 will follow within the next few weeks. The test rifle is a 223 F-Class Savage PTA based job shooting Lapua brass and the 77gn SMK at a longer than SAAMI COAL.

http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=3811

Altogether well over 20 powders will be tried as alternatives to the Hodgdon pair, all available in the US bar IIRC four products. CFE-223 will be one of nine ball type powders sampled, but I've yet to load this one and range-test it.

Laurie,
Thanks for sharing all this information.
It is good work and is greatly appreciated.

CW