Case Prep...

[riflewoman]

Thanks for the input...I've read many posts that have gotten me started and one of those was 750. What temp is the correct ballpark number?

If you want to anneal, 1000 F. Whicgph is a dull red in a darkened room.

 

[Bart B.]

I took one new Federal 308 case reloaded it 46 times with F210M primers, 42 grains of IMR4895 under Sierra 165 SBT bullets. Full length sized in a gelded die with neck honed out to .0015" smaller than loaded round neck.

All shots chronographed; first 5, middle 5 and last 5 shots had about the same spread and average.

 

[JimSC]

So did you quit annealing completely?

until I see a reason to continue, yes. I'll let my numbers and the targets decide whether I resume or not and if I do resume most likely it will be with a AMP.

Each to their own though, what works for one person and all that. A lot of shooting is mental and if you think it helps, then it helps.

 

[INTJ]

How would anyone know?

I know how consistent seating pressure is. I use a 21st Century Hydro seater and see what PSI it takes to seat each round.

My process is to anneal cases in my AMP annealer after firing. Then I resize, trim, etc. When I started annealing after each firing my consistency in seating pressure significantly improved. Most cases seat at 25-35 PSI. Ones that exceed 40 are grouped together. Out of a typical 75 round loading session for a match, maybe 5-10% are in the over 40 PSI group. Before annealing after each firing it was more like 50%.

 

[Howland]

Well I have a standing challenge to Girraud, AMP and any other annealing manufacturer to actually test their machines at the shooting range.

File under; Be careful what you wish for.

https://www.ampannealing.com/articles/40/annealing-under-the-microscope/

While they did not validate their findings on the target range (I would be on the edge of my seat waiting for that), they did correlate annealing with a low standard deviation in the amount of force required to pull the bullet from the case. In my mind, they've gone halfway there.

File under; Forewarned is fair warned.

I post this with the intent to bait someone with OCD traits, education level, free time availability, shooting skill and precision instrument availability all a couple degrees higher than me to carry out the testing for which @JimSC has so thoughtfully sketched out a preliminary Design of Experiment.

 

[INTJ]

@INTJ
While that's cool how annealing is working for your seating force consistency, there is other ways obtaining the same results without annealing.
Don't take this wrong, I'm definitely not telling you to stop what your doing. I'm just saying that myself and others have been able to accomplish seating force consistency without annealing. You found it in annealing, we found it in other forms of neck prep.

In all actuality, myself like it when my necks get to or near there hardest state. That's when I really get consistent seating force.
In testing annealing, I could get similarities to what your saying, but I could not improve on it. To improve on it, I had to go at other neck prep.
What I do like about annealing (when testing it), is what it does for the shoulders. If I could anneal just the shoulder and not the neck at all, I would likely anneal often. But since I can't, I will continue to not anneal, and prep my cases to a state that compliments my seating force desires.

Here is what the three Top Guns from the 2018 IBS-1000 Yard National's reported:
"On the reloading side, none of them anneal regularly, if at all. Carroll’s (the 2-Gun Over-All winner) cases had 15-20 firings on them, and had only been annealed once, early on, ....."
(Link to the write up: Click Here , then scroll down toward the bottom to "Reloading").

Glad annealing works for you, as it does for many others as well. If you want to improve on it, you may get away from it, but maybe not either.
Good luck in all your endeavors !.!.!

I made no claims as to annealing being the ONLY way to get consistent neck tension. However, I have consistently seen that given my method of case prep, AMP annealing significantly improved consistency of seating pressure.

Now does that translate to group size? Well, when I competed a dozen years ago I shot smaller 1000 yd groups with a bigger chambering in a lighter gun from a lesser rest system that didn’t track well at a range with more wind where I didn’t even look at wind flags.

I weighed powder on a scale that is less accurate, didn’t anneal, and didn’t worry about seating pressure and everything was seated with a 7/8-14 seater die. I used a reamer that is supposed to be too tight and didn’t have enough freebore for the bullet I was shooting.

So so maybe ALL of what we do nowadays is BS...........

 

[JimSC]

File under; Be careful what you wish for.

https://www.ampannealing.com/articles/40/annealing-under-the-microscope/

While they did not validate their findings on the target range (I would be on the edge of my seat waiting for that), they did correlate annealing with a low standard deviation in the amount of force required to pull the bullet from the case. In my mind, they've gone halfway there.

Howland I would gladly buy a AMP this afternoon if they would actually do a real life test and show some statistically significant differences. So far Bryan Litz is the only one to do anything of the sort and his initial findings on the .308 and .223 showed very little improvement if any from annealing in regard to velocity SD and case life.

I am also a huge fan of the series "How much does it matter" and since I am already in the single digits on my SD without annealing would I see any significant improvement if it dropped to zero? I doubt it because I am a novice at the long range game. I am not a world class shooter and if I had the equipment they use my scores would not improve noticeably. I realize my biggest issue is me, not the equipment.

I think many shooters are just like my neighbor who is a golf addict. He buys every new toy the industry can come up with but after 40 years is still a mid to high 90's golfer and always will be. There is a point when no amount of new tech and toys can help, only practice practice and more practice. My FedEx delivery lady must think I am some sort of nut case becasue every couple of weeks she is delivering 2 or 3 more bricks of 22LR but I swear shooting it at 100 and 200 has helped my shooting more than all the fancy toys in the 21st Century Shooting store would.

Sorry to ramble but one more thing, I want to make it clear I am not a engineer. I have always been a math and science guy and have 50 years of industrial repair starting with Navy Nuclear Power school . I can read scientific papers and understand the math but no degrees here. So take my conclusions with a grain of salt

And again, if you think it matters and improves your game, then it matters. I don't care if it is a lucky hat or a annealing machine

 

[INTJ]

I bought my AMP machine last Dec—my Christmas present. I hadn’t returned to LR BR competition yet. Guys who has them were saying that ES was better, groups were smaller, and brass was lasting longer in hunting rifles. I had a couple hunting rifles I wanted to try it on. Also, in my previous competition life, a fellow competitor who was always at the top annealed his brass all the time and had 40 firings on his expensive Lazeronni Patriot cases, so I knew there was merit to the idea.

In Feb I discovered there was indeed NBRSA long range BR in my area (only took 11 years to figure that out—you’d think they have a better website) so I jumped all the way in. I started annealing after I got my Hydro seater as I mentioned above. I still don’t know if the AMP will improve my hunting loads. I haven’t had time to shoot any of my hunting rifles this year.......

 

[Mulligan]

So much of seating force depends on the neck wall thickness, neck preparations, and neck interference fit, that what works for one person with there brand of brass, cartridge/caliber, preparation methods, annealing methods, and equipment used, can have large variation from someone else's scenario's. Which all tells me: annealing itself, the amount of annealing, how often to anneal, etc., etc... are unique to each individuals own scenario's. There is no guarantee that annealing is even needed at all, which gets repeatedly proven by those who don't, just as often as by those who do.

I think it is one of the many things that you have to test with each rifle/barrel.
CW

 

[C. Collins]

I have fired non-annealed brass and annealed brass. It really doesn't show up on the target. To that point it doesn't matter if you size then anneal or anneal then size. A consistent process can create consistent results which also includes being consistently inconsistent.

 

[ChadCollins]

So as Riflewoman says 1000 degrees is a good number. I dug a bit and found some other info (seemed very scientific anyways) that showed 950. I think the same article also said 700 for an hour annealing takes place, and anything less than that is just stress relieving. So there is a fine line between annealing and over annealing.

Interesting.... I aim the point of the white flame just touching the bend at the neck and shoulder. With lights out. The neck just starts to glow. Interesting as well that exact moment with 750 tempilaq melts away.

At those settings this is how far the heat travels down the body. The green is 750, grey is 450.

Chad

 

[Webster]

I figure brass springback changes after annealing so I would anneal then size. Whatever you choose just be consistent in the process (either before or after but don’t switch it up from time to time)

Makes sense for size after anneal. No way to know if the heat changes dimensions a tiny amount.