Case Prep...

[ChadCollins]

Now that I have just added annealing to the task I'm wondering....

To my understanding annealing is best done with the brass nice and clean to assure the most even anneal.

A local fella recently said he thinks resizing again after annealing is best since the brass possibly changes some after annealing.

Curious others experience and thoughts on this.

I just anneal a batch of .223 and resized again. I'm going to load them up this evening curious how consistent the seating pressure will be.

Thanks for your insights!

Chad

 

[mikecr]

curious how consistent the seating pressure will be.

How would anyone know?

 

[ChadCollins]

Well the reason I just added annealing to my process.... About my fourth firing I noticed by “feel” an increase in force required to seat my bullets.

So now that I added annealing I’m wondering if those that have gone before me have experienced more consistent seating annealing before resizing, or after resizing, or do any run through the press before and after...???

I know it’s not going to be exact, but feel can tell a lot.

 

[Campbell]

To me it's logical that neck resizing (during the f/l resizing process) is best done after annealing as the brass has been de-stressed and therefore the neck size should be as consistent as it gets (everything else been equal).

I also believe that only clean brass should be annealed as annealing dirty brass is baking crud onto/into the case neck.

 

[dickn52]

Well the reason I just added annealing to my process.... About my fourth firing I noticed by “feel” an increase in force required to seat my bullets.

So now that I added annealing I’m wondering if those that have gone before me have experienced more consistent seating annealing before resizing, or after resizing, or do any run through the press before and after...???

I know it’s not going to be exact, but feel can tell a lot.

That would be due to sizing most likely, not annealing.

 

[jepp2]

A local fella recently said he thinks resizing again after annealing is best since the brass possibly changes some after annealing.

This has been discussed on here quite a bit. Our local expert, Riflewoman says nothing during annealing will change dimension-ally, so do it when you like.

I anneal after cleaning and sizing. But probably for a different reason. I find that if I size after annealing, the oxide on the surface of the case neck from annealing will tend to start adhering to the die neck and start scuffing the case necks after a while. And yes I lube my case necks before sizing. But I admit I really watch my brass and most folks would never even notice the scuffing I am talking about.

I can tell you do not anneal with case sizing lube left on the cases. I bought some used brass from a guy that did this, and the stains are there forever.

 

[ChadCollins]

That would be due to sizing most likely, not annealing.

Sizing? Why now?

 

[ChadCollins]

This has been discussed on here quite a bit. Our local expert, Riflewoman says nothing during annealing will change dimension-ally, so do it when you like.

I anneal after cleaning and sizing. But probably for a different reason. I find that if I size after annealing, the oxide on the surface of the case neck from annealing will tend to start adhering to the die neck and start scuffing the case necks after a while. And yes I lube my case necks before sizing. But I admit I really watch my brass and most folks would never even notice the scuffing I am talking about.

I can tell you do not anneal with case sizing lube left on the cases. I bought some used brass from a guy that did this, and the stains are there forever.

Thanks. Very useful logic.

 

[MislMan]

I figure brass springback changes after annealing so I would anneal then size. Whatever you choose just be consistent in the process (either before or after but don’t switch it up from time to time)

 

[dickn52]

I figure brass springback changes after annealing so I would anneal then size. Whatever you choose just be consistent in the process (either before or after but don’t switch it up from time to time)

This

 

[ToddKS]

I anneal then size. That seems to make the most sense to me due to the springback issues mentioned above.

 

[stifffingers]

I anneal then size. That seems to make the most sense to me due to the springback issues mentioned above.

When you anneal, the brass looses it spring back. If you use a neck bushing, any size the neck will be .001 smaller on an annealed case. Check out the FAQ page on AMP.com.

 

[JimSC]

Looking at it from a scientific point of view annealing does nothing to affect the elasticity of the brass only the hardness. Hardness and elasticity are two separate properties. Annealing may affect case life by allowing the grain to realign but by how much depends on a scad of other factors. If you look at C26800 Yellow brass the modulus of elasticity is the same for both OSO50 annealed brass and H06 extra hard brass. The elastic modulus and Poisson's ratio are identical for each and that is what determines the elasticity of the case neck when a bullet is forced into it. That is just scientific fact, not opinion

https://www.makeitfrom.com/material-properties/UNS-C26800-CW506L-Yellow-Brass

My other question is how do you accurately determine seating pressure with any manual press that is on the market today? You need a consistent and steady source of pressure and some way to measure that force at predetermined points. Seating force will vary as more of the bullet is inserted into the case as resistance will increase as more friction is applied to the bullet by the neck.

 

[stifffingers]

Looking at it from a scientific point of view annealing does nothing to affect the elasticity of the brass only the hardness. Hardness and elasticity are two separate properties. Annealing may affect case life by allowing the grain to realign but by how much depends on a scad of other factors. If you look at C26800 Yellow brass the modulus of elasticity is the same for both OSO50 annealed brass and H06 extra hard brass. The elastic modulus and Poisson's ratio are identical for each and that is what determines the elasticity of the case neck when a bullet is forced into it. That is just scientific fact, not opinion

https://www.makeitfrom.com/material-properties/UNS-C26800-CW506L-Yellow-Brass

My other question is how do you accurately determine seating pressure with any manual press that is on the market today? You need a consistent and steady source of pressure and some way to measure that force at predetermined points. Seating force will vary as more of the bullet is inserted into the case as resistance will increase as more friction is applied to the bullet by the neck.

I'm sure you are 100% correct but I only know from my own personal experience. What Alex Finley put on his web page is also correct. Their is only one thing more difficult than having a discussion with an engineer, that's communicating with the dead.

 

[riflewoman]

In my view it doesn’t really matter much if you anneal before or after sizing if annealing is done correctly. ( If you’re stopping at 750F you’re only stress relieving.).

To me it’s where to have the brass in the firing-size-expand cycle. At some point the seating force will increase beyond acceptable limits and that’s when to anneal. If you anneal before sizing you’ll get one less seating before you have to anneal again. As you can surmise, I don’t recommend annealing at every loading.

 

[JimSC]

I'm sure you are 100% correct but I only know from my own personal experience. What Alex Finley put on his web page is also correct. Their is only one thing more difficult than having a discussion with an engineer, that's communicating with the dead.

Well I have a standing challenge to Girraud, AMP and any other annealing manufacturer to actually test their machines at the shooting range. The test should consist of at least 50 cases divided into two sets. Half would be annealed after every firing, half never annealed but otherwise prepped and loaded exactly the same as the annealed cases. Then take those rounds and shoot them 10 to 20 times each using a machine rest over a chronograph and document the group sizes and velocities. The first annealing machine manufacturer that does that and shows there is an appreciable improvement with the annealed cases will sell me a machine. The only lab test that matters to me on case annealing is the one that starts at the shooting bench and ends at the target.

BTW I annealed after every firing for over a year and a half and stopped. It has only been three firings but my numbers are still as good if not better than they have ever been

I have no doubt that annealing affects grain structure and hardness, but the fact still remains that grain structure has nothing to do with the elasticity of the metal. Many confuse elasticity with ductility, they are not the same thing https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-difference-between-ductility-and-elasticity

edit attaching my the chrono results from my last range session. These were Lapua cases on their third firing. Case prep was depining on a universal, wiped down with Ballistol, FL resized using a Redding S bushing die with lanolin/alcohol lube and expander removed, wet pin cleaned, trimmed deburred and chamfered, powder weighed on a Smartweigh Gem 20. I doubt I could get those numbers any better and even if I could they would not show on paper.

But back to the OP, I don't really think it matters. Riflewoman pretty much answered the question

 

[ChadCollins]

In my view it doesn’t really matter much if you anneal before or after sizing if annealing is done correctly. ( If you’re stopping at 750F you’re only stress relieving.).

To me it’s where to have the brass in the firing-size-expand cycle. At some point the seating force will increase beyond acceptable limits and that’s when to anneal. If you anneal before sizing you’ll get one less seating before you have to anneal again. As you can surmise, I don’t recommend annealing at every loading.

Thanks for the input...I've read many posts that have gotten me started and one of those was 750. What temp is the correct ballpark number?

 

[ChadCollins]

Well I have a standing challenge to Girraud, AMP and any other annealing manufacturer to actually test their machines at the shooting range. The test should consist of at least 50 cases divided into two sets. Half would be annealed after every firing, half never annealed but otherwise prepped and loaded exactly the same as the annealed cases. Then take those rounds and shoot them 10 to 20 times each using a machine rest over a chronograph and document the group sizes and velocities. The first annealing machine manufacturer that does that and shows there is an appreciable improvement with the annealed cases will sell me a machine. The only lab test that matters to me on case annealing is the one that starts at the shooting bench and ends at the target.

BTW I annealed after every firing for over a year and a half and stopped. It has only been three firings but my numbers are still as good if not better than they have ever been

I have no doubt that annealing affects grain structure and hardness, but the fact still remains that grain structure has nothing to do with the elasticity of the metal. Many confuse elasticity with ductility, they are not the same thing https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-difference-between-ductility-and-elasticity

edit attaching my the chrono results from my last range session. These were Lapua cases on their third firing. Case prep was depining on a universal, wiped down with Ballistol, FL resized using a Redding S bushing die with lanolin/alcohol lube and expander removed, wet pin cleaned, trimmed deburred and chamfered, powder weighed on a Smartweigh Gem 20. I doubt I could get those numbers any better and even if I could they would not show on paper.

But back to the OP, I don't really think it matters. Riflewoman pretty much answered the question

So did you quit annealing completely?

 

[Dusty Stevens]

You anneal to get more consistent sizing and shoulder bump- so why get inconsistent bump then anneal before shooting? You dont anneal to make sure brass forms well upon firing. Annealing after sizing is like putting your socks on after your shoes.

 

[dmoran]

So much of seating force depends on the neck wall thickness, neck preparations, and neck interference fit, that what works for one person with there brand of brass, cartridge/caliber, preparation methods, annealing methods, and equipment used, can have large variation from someone else's scenario's. Which all tells me: annealing itself, the amount of annealing, how often to anneal, etc., etc... are unique to each individuals own scenario's. There is no guarantee that annealing is even needed at all, which gets repeatedly proven by those who don't, just as often as by those who do.