case fill question

[IMR4064]

so im doing a load work up for 30-06
cases are norma 270 necked up to 30 cal
110 vmax bullets seated at 3.17
powder is imr 4895. min 56 max 59.8
7 groups in .6 grain increments

59.2 was compressed and 59.8 would not fit. none of the data i have indicates compressed load.

needless to say max load was 59.2 grains.

i have noticed that norma cases tend to be a little smaller in 243. is this common across the board or is the issue with the 270 brass? i plan on working up from min and looking for pressure signs along the way to be safe



heres the data i have to work with. it appears the lee is just reprinting hodgdon as well or i would post it

 

[IMR4064]

pics of cases

 

[IMR4064]

lyman is calling for 49-53.5 grains but its a sierra hollow point and moving much slower

 

[SeabeeKen]

Hornady data used winchester brass which IME holds more powder. Did you use a drop tube?

 

[IMR4064]

Hornady data used winchester brass which IME holds more powder. Did you use a drop tube?

im still pretty new at this. what do you mean by drop tube?

i weighed every charge with a beam scale and transfered the charge in the pan to the funnel that was over the case.

 

[itchyTF]

im still pretty new at this. what do you mean by drop tube?

i weighed every charge with a beam scale and transfered the charge in the pan to the funnel that was over the case.

A description -

Forster Blue Ribbon Powder Funnel Long Drop Tube

The Forster Blue Ribbon Powder Funnel with 5-1/4" drop tube is the perfect funnel for a reloader looking to maximize their compressed loads. The...

www.midwayusa.com

 

[William Vogel]

A drop tube is basically a funnel with a long section of straight tube exiting the funnel. The tube end fits onto your brass and it helps consolidate the extruded powder kernels as they fill the brass case. You’ll get more powder to stack into the brass. I don’t have a drop tube but I slowly pour the powder from the pan into the funnel making the kernels bounce off the side and I get better consolation also. If you pour fast and directly over the center of the funnel, the powder will consume more space than optimal.

 

[Jager]

No experience with Norma brass in .30-06. But, yes, case volumes differ - sometimes significantly - between different headstamps. And sometimes even between lots of brass within the same headstamp, though lot-to-lot differences are usually much less.

Case volume is a critical measure of how much pressure a given charge weight will produce, so it's kind of important to understand what you're dealing with. Easiest thing to do is to simply measure several fired, unsized cases, using water, and take the average.

Moderately compressed loads are rarely a problem and there's little reason to avoid them. Heavily compressed loads are a problem and so, again, it's important to understand how much compression you're dealing with.

QuickLoad, using its default 68.2 gr of case volume in .30-06, has your 59.8 gr. maximum weight charge showing 2% compression - which is perfectly okay.

Bottom line is you really want to understand, not guess, at how much case volume you've got.

Welcome to the forum!

 

[Deleted member fkimble@charter.net]

When working with case full loads pouring the powder in very slow will allow it to pack down a little more than just dumping it all in at once. Also putting your finger over the case mouth and tapping the case head on the bench top a couple times will also help settle the powder.

Frank

 

[dryhumor]

A cheap cordless toothbrush does a decent job at vibrating the cases to compact the powder. $5-6

 

[243winxb]

Hodgdon data would show a "C" for compressed loads. There is none.
You case volume would appear smaller then normal. High pressure will be the results.

im still pretty new at this.

Avoid compressed powder charges. Buy some factory 30-06 brass. Much safer for a new reloader.

 

[IMR4064]

Hodgdon data would show a "C" for compressed loads. There is none.
You case volume would appear smaller then normal. High pressure will be the results.

Avoid compressed powder charges. Buy some factory 30-06 brass. Much safer for a new reloader.

brass is hard to come by these days. i gather up what i can and sort by head stamp. ive necked up alot of 270 and havent had an issue. i think norma might just be a little smaller than others.

anyway im going to do my ladder test and watch closely for pressure signs. first signs of pressure and im stopping. even if its the starting load

 

[Ned Ludd]

I have no way of knowing what equipment you have available to you, but there are likely a couple options that most everyone could do in this situation. First, you can simply weigh a few cases of the different brands you have. There are several caveats to doing this and I would not normally recommend it for any kind of "precision" work. However, case volume is generally inversely proportional to case weight:

Case Volume vs. Weight

One of the most common disagreements we see is whether you should group your cases by volume or weight. While you'll find a lot of talk about what somebody thinks or feels, it's very rare to find a post that includes actual data. And even when data is provided it is usually not statistically...

forum.accurateshooter.com

If the Norma cases really have that much less internal volume than the other types you have (i.e. are causing compressed loads), I would expect them to weigh noticeably less.

Second, determine velocity when you begin testing with the lower (and presumably safe) charge weights, if possible. Your velocity (as compared to the reloading manual values) should be a somewhat coarse indicator of where the lower charge weight load falls in terms of pressure. In other words, velocity may be able to tell you you're approaching excessive pressure before the brass does. Using pressure signs in brass as the sole indicator can be risky. Sometimes it works, but sometimes the load can be markedly over pressure before the pressure signs are obvious.

Finally, just be very careful with what you are doing. I reload .30-06 and 59+ gr of IMR4895 seems like a lot of powder to me, even with a 110 gr bullet. Even your starting point seems high. I hope that is not the case, but consider safety first. If you have any reason to think the loads are reaching excessive pressure while firing the charge weight test rounds, stop right there. Having to pull loaded rounds can be mildly annoying, but the alterative could be far worse.

 

[Webster]

so im doing a load work up for 30-06
cases are norma 270 necked up to 30 cal
110 vmax bullets seated at 3.17
powder is imr 4895. min 56 max 59.8
7 groups in .6 grain increments

59.2 was compressed and 59.8 would not fit. none of the data i have indicates compressed load.

needless to say max load was 59.2 grains.

i have noticed that norma cases tend to be a little smaller in 243. is this common across the board or is the issue with the 270 brass? i plan on working up from min and looking for pressure signs along the way to be safe



heres the data i have to work with. it appears the lee is just reprinting hodgdon as well or i would post it

My Sierra reload manual gives 53.9 gr on IMR 4895 as a max load. for a 110 Gr. bullet 3300 fps. Your trying 5.9 grains over the Sierra max load??? Why are you trying to get a load with a much powder in the case as you can get away with. Accuracy is all that is needed for a hunting rifle.

 

[IMR4064]

My Sierra reload manual gives 53.9 gr on IMR 4895 as a max load. for a 110 Gr. bullet 3300 fps. Your trying 5.9 grains over the Sierra max load??? Why are you trying to get a load with a much powder in the case as you can get away with. Accuracy is all that is needed for a hunting rifle.

yeah. speer data for hollow points are about the same, but im not loading speer or sierra. im loading hornady with the punloshed data above for 110 g soft point because there isnt data with that powder with vmax.

 

[IMR4064]

I have no way of knowing what equipment you have available to you, but there are likely a couple options that most everyone could do in this situation. First, you can simply weigh a few cases of the different brands you have. There are several caveats to doing this and I would not normally recommend it for any kind of "precision" work. However, case volume is generally inversely proportional to case weight:

Case Volume vs. Weight

One of the most common disagreements we see is whether you should group your cases by volume or weight. While you'll find a lot of talk about what somebody thinks or feels, it's very rare to find a post that includes actual data. And even when data is provided it is usually not statistically...

forum.accurateshooter.com

If the Norma cases really have that much less internal volume than the other types you have (i.e. are causing compressed loads), I would expect them to weigh noticeably less.

Second, determine velocity when you begin testing with the lower (and presumably safe) charge weights, if possible. Your velocity (as compared to the reloading manual values) should be a somewhat coarse indicator of where the lower charge weight load falls in terms of pressure. In other words, velocity may be able to tell you you're approaching excessive pressure before the brass does. Using pressure signs in brass as the sole indicator can be risky. Sometimes it works, but sometimes the load can be markedly over pressure before the pressure signs are obvious.

Finally, just be very careful with what you are doing. I reload .30-06 and 59+ gr of IMR4895 seems like a lot of powder to me, even with a 110 gr bullet. Even your starting point seems high. I hope that is not the case, but consider safety first. If you have any reason to think the loads are reaching excessive pressure while firing the charge weight test rounds, stop right there. Having to pull loaded rounds can be mildly annoying, but the alterative could be far worse.

ive had this issue before with lc 69 brass and 150 interlocks. middle of the range had heavy bolt lift. bottom of the range had no pressure signs but 2 inches higher point of impact. i figured it was a case volume issue.
another time with ppu brass on 243. starting charge had flat primers and middle charge heavy bolt lift. i eventually backed down a little from start charge and pressure signs went away and point of impact was the same as the other loads with that grain bullet.


this is just the sad truth of things i guess. we cant always find the specific cases used in published data or primers....or sometimes powder with the specific bullet.

i reckon i can keep trying to sort stuff out or just hang it up until components are more availible.

ive never loaded with imr 4895 before so i cant say if its alot or not. all i can say is i found a source of publised data with that powder range with a similar bullet, different primer and different case.

 

[dryhumor]

ETA

IMR 4895 charges range from 50.5-54.5, in the Speer #12 from 1995, for the 110 SP. A 110 grain



Similar weight bullets should have an overlap in charge weights, with different COAL based on length. The Speer bullet is .814” long and seated deeper, the Vmax is .918” long and not as deep.

 

[Webster]

ive had this issue before with lc 69 brass and 150 interlocks. middle of the range had heavy bolt lift. bottom of the range had no pressure signs but 2 inches higher point of impact. i figured it was a case volume issue.
another time with ppu brass on 243. starting charge had flat primers and middle charge heavy bolt lift. i eventually backed down a little from start charge and pressure signs went away and point of impact was the same as the other loads with that grain bullet.


this is just the sad truth of things i guess. we cant always find the specific cases used in published data or primers....or sometimes powder with the specific bullet.

i reckon i can keep trying to sort stuff out or just hang it up until components are more availible.

ive never loaded with imr 4895 before so i cant say if its alot or not. all i can say is i found a source of publised data with that powder range with a similar bullet, different primer and different case.

Simple answer. Keep away from near max charges. Use what gives the best accuracy. Deer don't know how fast the bullet is going that kills them.

 

[IMR4064]

Simple answer. Keep away from near max charges. Use what gives the best accuracy. Deer don't know how fast the bullet is going that kills them.

thats the plan. i still havent shot the load test yet. its just been too dang hot in Texas

 

[David Milisock]

Ammo Seek has 06 brass for 59 cents a piece.