Carbon scrapper to fit cleaning rod??

[CatShooter]

Tried to find a XX75 1816 arrow to make a carbon removal tool and none to be found around here. So question is has anyone made one out of mild steel that would just screw into a cleaning rod? I could whip one out on the lathe. Can't see why it wouldn't work or am I not seeing things right??

At the risk of sounding silly, isn't exactly for this reason that they make chamber brushes? (see below).

It works for me, and I have a borescope to verify it. If you do it regularly you won't get a carbon ring. Of course prevention is the key, just don't trim your brass so short in the first place.

Actually, if you trim your cases so there is a minimum of space, what ash does build up, is in a space that is hard to get to (the corner of the end of the chamber).

If you trim your cases back by 20 to 25 thou, then when you clean them, that corner is still the same, but the space in front of the case mouth is clean, and that is what we want - Jack Neary covers this in his excellent youtube series on accuracy.

 

[Joe R]

CatShooter said:
Jack Neary covers this in his excellent youtube series on accuracy.

Wow Paul,
I just finished watching the first video. Good stuff, even though I'm not a bench rest guy.

Kindest regards,

Joe

 

[bdale]

Just a few questions about the brush and bore cleaner method:

What is it about the carbon ring that defies regular bore and chamber brushing and demands special attention? Is it the thickness, the hardness, its location, all of the above or something else?

Does there have to be an abrasive in the cleaners to use for removing the carbon ring?

When the cleaner is applied to a patch or brush, does it just cover the carbon ring or does the brush & cleaner also act on clean steel on each side of the carbon?

How many times does the brush & cleaner method need to be repeated before the carbon is gone?

Why using a drill to turn the brush, how do you control the depth of the brush and avoid brushing the lands?

Thickness is relative - but the reason for the procedure I use is the hardness and the location. The ash build up is very hard and resistant to solvents.

It is in a place (between the end of the case mouth, and the beginning of the lead), which defies removal by lengthwise brush strokes.

Only a rotary motion will get that hard ash out of that corner space.

I do not use abrasive pastes - just a bore brush and bore solvent. I use the solvent to wash away the ash crud and the brush loosens it... it does not "dissolve" the ash.

The brass/bronze of the brush will remove the ash that collects there if it is tight and spun (i.e., a 25 cal brush for a 224 bore).

Regardless of the beliefs and comments by those that didn't take metallurgy in school, brass/bronze cannot hurt barrel steel, the lands, the grooves, or the throat - not ever. It is way too soft.

I started shooting bench back in the 70s, and campaigned a 222 family rifle for a few years. I did Okie Dokie, and then the rifle lost it's edge, so I figured that the barrel was shot (badd pun), and retired it to whackin' crows and woodchucks.

This is way before we knew anything about the pressures of different loads. I later discovered that the load I was using (W-748) was producing about 26,000 to 30,000 psa - a very low pressure load. Which caused two things - the barrel did not burn out - when bore scoped 5 years ago, it looked unfired - but at 26,000 to 30,000 psi, the powder burned sooooo dirty, that the ash build up looked like the bottom of a barbecue pit.

That is when I started using over sized bore brushes and a brass rod in a drill. The first time I did it (for a few minutes with inspections every 30 seconds), and finely got all the ash out of there, the barrel looked new, and the rifle was reborn - it now shoots in the mid to high ones on a good day.

I have never seen or met a solvent that will remove ash (the way bore cleaners remove copper)... the ash MUST be removed by physical means - it is t-o-u-g-h-!

+1

 

[CatShooter]

CatShooter said:
Jack Neary covers this in his excellent youtube series on accuracy.

Wow Paul,
I just finished watching the first video. Good stuff, even though I'm not a bench rest guy.

Kindest regards,

Joe

It is good stuff. And he is not a pompous asss about it like a lot of folks are.

I have a 6mmBR bench gun that gave me so many fits that I put it in the back of the safe for many years - it has a 0.262" neck and I cut my cases for a finished diameter of 0.261-ish. It was a nightmare to shoot and never consistent.

I watched his video and my jaw dropped when he was talking about "cut thin to win" (I think it is in part two). He was recommending a 2.5 to 3 thou total clearance in the neck.

So I cut twenty cases and WOW.. that pain in the asss princess rifle became a grouping slut!

So I re-neck turned the rest of the cases (all 1,030 of them )

IT is a good series and worth watching a few times - he is a class act!!!

 

[artbosco]

It's all about Measuring! 8)

To find the spot where your chamber ends and carbon tends to build up, take a piece of straightened wire and insert it into the chamber until you feel the end of the neck chamber.

Make sure the piece of wire is long enough so that it sticks out the back end of your action [bolt removed of course]. Mark the wire with tape or marker where it [just] protrudes from the action.

Take your cleaning rod with a slightly over sized bronze brush that is attached to it, and measure [with the wire] from the tip of the brush along the rods length. Put some tape around or mark the rod where the wire ends. I have a shortened rod for this specific task.

**Now, when you insert the rod, when the tape or mark [on the rod] reaches the back end of your action, you'll know that the brush is at the end of the neck chamber where the carbon tends to build up.** 8)

Put some J-B on the end of the brush, about the size of a pea, and rotate it about 20 to 30 complete revolutions. Remove the J-B before starting your normal cleaning procedure.

I clean that spot after about every 60 rounds. Some wait longer to do it. I don't want any build up so I do it at the 60 round level. My Hawkeye borescope confirms the extent of my cleaning.

 

[Joe Salt]

Catshooter I run my necks thin also, I think it also help with extraction when opening the bolt, the come out one hall of a let easier! And I trim my brass about 10 thou. back, and I can see with the borescope that the carbon is spread more evenly than if it was maybe 2 thou. short and builds in one tiny area.

Joe Salt

 

[Tozguy]

Would it be worth the effort to make a cutter from a case neck by cutting it off the case and filing notches in the end then soldering a brass screw into it to fit a section of cleaning rod then center it in the bore guide and clean the carbon ring out. Or, simply turn a brass blank and file the end like an end cutting end mill and use that.

Any un-coated or uncleaned piece of aluminum is going to have a layer of very hard aluminum oxide less than .001" on it that will easily scratch barrel steel. Once it is removed it immediately starts to form again.

T W Hudson

Yes exactly, the objective is to 'cut' the carbon ring away instead of abrading it away. I have tried both the end mill idea and the reamer idea, BUT by using an aluminum arrow instead of a brass case or other material. What seems to escape a few of us is that the arrow is anodized. It has a very slippery non abrasive finish. There is no aluminum oxide in contact with the chamber. Plus the arrow is undersized. For example, a 2116 arrow is .328'' OD which is comfortably under many 30 cal necks.

The flutes need to be bent outwards to contact the carbon ring. Properly done, the leading edge of the flutes only contact the carbon ring.

In working with these arrow shafts for a few years now there is no evidence at all that the aluminum is harder than barrel steel. Quite the contrary, not only are the relief angles very safe for the chamber but the cutting edge of the flutes regularly need sharpening.

 

[JRS]

Once you cut through the very thin anodizing on the shaft, you have exposed the oxides.

 

[Tozguy]

Once you cut through the very thin anodizing on the shaft, you have exposed the oxides.

The anodizing may be thin but it is tough. Haven't worn through the anodizing yet but when I do I'll just cut the end off and cut a fresh tip. The 'oxides' that are exposed from cutting the slot do not contact the chamber. Would you please point out what 'oxide' surface on either arrow that you think would be a problem?

 

[JRS]

The very instant you start to turn that in your chamber, the anodizing is gone. It isn't type III anodizing. There was a thread on BRC some time ago regarding the use of aluminum shafts in the chamber. A very experienced, knowledgeable, and well respected gunsmith summed it up in 3 words. "Don't do it".

 

[Tozguy]

I would very much like to read that article BRC. Would you have a link to it?

 

[artbosco]

It's a no brainer. Use J-B! Keep it Simple.

 

[Tozguy]

It can be even simpler than JB, just leave it be. ;D

 

[harv50]

built one for the 6Dasher... see if the picture shows up

 

[bigstick6017555]

match barrel + bore scope + good cleaning tools + regular cleaning interval = no dreaded carbon ring. makes me wonder how our match guns ever shot in the mid 1s back in the day before all this must have technology came along. I think a lot of shooters that are chasing that elusive 1 hole are overlooking the simple things and end up making it to technically complicated.

 

[Thud]

Issio paste and thier brush carbon gone. Or Reminton 40x solvent on a brush wrapped a patch around it.
Why reinvent the wheel

 

[Eddie Harren]

I want to know, who is buying all this scrap carbon?

 

[CatShooter]

I want to know, who is buying all this scrap carbon?

Al Gore..

... . it is part of his "Carbon Footprint"!!

 

[Lapua40X]

I put an over-sized brush with bore cleaner, on a BRASS (not aluminum) rod, hooked to a 1/4 drill, and give it 30 seconds.

Cleans fine and doesn't hurt anything - steel (of any kind) would give me pause.

I do something similar, but I use one of these:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/BLACK-DECKER-6-Volt-Alkaline-Battery-Cordless-Screwdriver-AS6NG/202516259?cm_mmc=Shopping
I made an adapter that allows me to screw a short length of rod onto the driver and a brush on the other end. A little solvent and a few minutes of turning the bronze brush (no steel or aluminum shaft brushes please) and it's all gone. I use the same tool, with a larger (410 or 20 gauge shotgun brush) to clean the chamber if I happen to experience a rare case head separation.