Cant get Savage 11 - .308 to group

[thehebs]

I cant get my savage model 11 - .308 to group well.

Setup:
- Savage Model 11 - .308
- SWFA SS 10x42
- SWFA Rings
- Nightforce 20 moa mount

Ammo I have tried:
- Gold Medal Match 168gr hpbt
- Gold Medal Match 175 gr hpbt
- Cheap Colt 168 gr hpbt
- Federal XM80CS

I even got into hand loading hoping that I could taylor a round to it. However, I cant even really get much data from my OCW test (100 yards) and ladder test (200 yards) because the groups were so terrible and the ladders were inconsistent between each other. I am loading SMK 168 hpbt's in fc cases, tried 42 to 46 gr varget in .5 increments, and federal 210 m match primers, 2.847 COAL (2.266 from ogive), which is about .007 from the lands.

OCW test at 100 yards. The best group was .882 inches, but that was the only group undre 1"... All of the groups averaged over 1.7".
-

Here is a video of my ladder tests. The video is sped up 4x. Each shot was about 1.5-3 minutes apart to make sure barrel wasnt too warm.
- [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7YM5LmtP3Q[/youtube]
- Here is a still shot of the ladder test

Here is a random group shot at 200. This was a few rounds of 168 gr gold medal match I used for prefouling and dope change confirmation when I moved from 100 to 200 for my ladder tests. Its not a terrible group I suppose, but I am looking for consistent sub MOA.

Can anyone suggest a load from the tests above?

Any input is greatly appreciated.

Hebs

 

[X Ring Accuracy]

A good trigger and bedding will show you what you have in that rifle. Also, look at the crown....any damage?

 

[savageshooter86]

what were you shooting off of?

What do the groups with 168 FGMM look like? If it won't shoot those under MOA at 100 then something is wrong somewhere in my opinion.

Make sure the action screws are not loose and none of the scope ring/mount screws are loose.

If you have someone who is a good shooter have them shoot a couple groups to verify it is NOT the rifle

 

[MNFinn]

My savage 11 really liked the lighter bullets, like 150-155 grains, that might be something to try

 

[thehebs]

A good trigger and bedding will show you what you have in that rifle. Also, look at the crown....any damage?

I have the accutrigger and have it almost as light as it will go. I am thinking about a bedding job, but I still think this thing should average better than 1.7 inch groups at 100. I will try to take some macro pics of the crown tomorrow.

 

[fredhorace77]

trash that junk federal brass and get some lapua..a majority of your problems will be solved. also check your front rest position you may need to slide your gun forward a little more and get the action about two and a half inches away from the rest. sometimes having your front rest too far forward will cause the barrel to hit the stock when fired if there is not a large amount of free float on the stock. ive seen this cause vertical stringing in groups. You got to keep in mind that if this is a hunting stock it will not ride the bags or perform like a benchrest stock.
Also make sure you are eliminating parralax at each distance you shoot. Like others have mentioned do not under estimate a good bedding job. I have seen this make a world of difference especially if the current bedding is mediocre at best.

 

[Gundoktr]

I had one in the shop a while ago with the same problem. The chamber cast showed the problem. The chamber was WWAAAYY out of concentricity with bore, a phuque up by the factory. I had to cut off the whole chamber and redo it. Make a helluva difference.

 

[fredhorace77]

I had one in the shop a while ago with the same problem. The chamber cast showed the problem. The chamber was WWAAAYY out of concentricity with bore, a phuque up by the factory. I had to cut off the whole chamber and redo it. Make a helluva difference.

Are you sure there is enough barrel meat to cut off the "whole" chamber and then rechamber it again. I didnt think savage made enough barrel on them for that type of work?

 

[jonbearman]

Like others have said,it may take 200 rounds fired till the barrel settles in.They are very rough internally and may need to wear some before you can say it is junk.Personally I would get rid of it and buy a mcgowen,criterion,shilen prefit and then you should have better results.Make sure the front screws on the front part of the mont or block are not bottomed out on the barrel threads as the reciver ring doesnt have much to spare for length variations in screws that other scope ring manufacturers send you.Take the scope off and see if there is any wiggle on the block or rail you have selected or any light or gap under it.

 

[thehebs]

what were you shooting off of?

What do the groups with 168 FGMM look like? If it won't shoot those under MOA at 100 then something is wrong somewhere in my opinion.

Make sure the action screws are not loose and none of the scope ring/mount screws are loose.

If you have someone who is a good shooter have them shoot a couple groups to verify it is NOT the rifle

I was shooting from a bench with bags. The FGMM 168's were ok, but still not sub MOA at 100. You can see in the target above that I got just at an MOA at 200 when I was pre fouling for my ladder tests.

I have made sure the scope ring and mount screws are tight and used blue loctite. I will check the action screws but I am pretty sure I cranked them down the last time I had the action out.

I plan on having my friends brother in law shoot as he shoots competitions and has been shooting for a long time. I am also going to see if they can throw my scope on one of their rifles to eliminate the possibility of issues with the scope, and vise versa, throw one of their scopes on my savage.

 

[thehebs]

My savage 11 really liked the lighter bullets, like 150-155 grains, that might be something to try

I have tried federal xm80cs 155's and groups were even worse.

 

[thehebs]

trash that junk federal brass and get some lapua..a majority of your problems will be solved. also check your front rest position you may need to slide your gun forward a little more and get the action about two and a half inches away from the rest. sometimes having your front rest too far forward will cause the barrel to hit the stock when fired if there is not a large amount of free float on the stock. ive seen this cause vertical stringing in groups. You got to keep in mind that if this is a hunting stock it will not ride the bags or perform like a benchrest stock.
Also make sure you are eliminating parralax at each distance you shoot. Like others have mentioned do not under estimate a good bedding job. I have seen this make a world of difference especially if the current bedding is mediocre at best.

Is the fc brass really that bad? Its all from my gold medal match. I dont see how brass could take me from 1.7 moa to sub moa.

I will try adjusting the front rest position, but I had it about an inch or 2 behind my QD lug.

I am debating getting a new stock and having some work done to it. I just would hate to do that, and it not be the problem. I want to eliminate everything else first. As I said above, I still feel that with the oem stock, I should at least be able to have consistent 1 moa groups, not averages over 1.7.

 

[thehebs]

Like others have said,it may take 200 rounds fired till the barrel settles in.They are very rough internally and may need to wear some before you can say it is junk.Personally I would get rid of it and buy a mcgowen,criterion,shilen prefit and then you should have better results.Make sure the front screws on the front part of the mont or block are not bottomed out on the barrel threads as the reciver ring doesnt have much to spare for length variations in screws that other scope ring manufacturers send you.Take the scope off and see if there is any wiggle on the block or rail you have selected or any light or gap under it.

I believe I am well into the 200 round count. I shot over 60 just this past weekend. I would say I am close to 300 overall.

I actually did have a long screw in the front mount at one time. The screw hit the barrel threads and therefore didnt bite threads. I replaced it with the short screw that was included with my mount and I cranked it down and loctited it.

 

[snowpro440]

Tang safety free floated ? Check it with a piece of paper .Do you have a bullet comparator ?

 

[rwk]

Check torque on action screws, one of these sites tell what torque.

 

[thehebs]

Tang safety free floated ? Check it with a piece of paper .Do you have a bullet comparator ?

I will check the tang. I do have a bullet comparator.

 

[thehebs]

Check torque on action screws, one of these sites tell what torque.

I need to get a torque driver so I can get proper torque on everything. I think a buddy has one I can borrow temporarily.

 

[Lapua40X]

Just for kicks, I might load up about a dozen of the 42.5 and vary the OAL from .007 off the lands using three thousandths difference for each load (with three rounds at each OAL selected) and see where those print. That might at least identify the possibility of an OAL issue.

 

[thehebs]

Just for kicks, I might load up about a dozen of the 42.5 and vary the OAL from .007 off the lands using three thousandths difference for each load (with three rounds at each OAL selected) and see where those print. That might at least identify the possibility of an OAL issue.

That actually sounds like a pretty good idea. I probably should have left the OAL at the standard 2.800 until I got the charge weight dialed in. I did the little trick where you dremel 4 slits in the case neck and put a bullet in the case, but leaving it long, chamber the round, then measure. I had read that its good to have it as close to the lands as possible and saw where people were having good results at .007 off the lands so I went with that. However, it might not be ideal for my rifle.

I will go load up some varying OAL's and try to test it out when I get a chance. I have to go out of town on business next week so it might be the following weekend before I can get back to the range.

 

[gotcha]

I agree w/ your changing Scopes. And also 40X's idea of varying seating depth. But, before you do that, do you have a "Tupper-ware" stock on your Savage? Savage's are also infamous for making good contact w/ front action screw pillar and having no contact at all at rear action screw pillar. This puts your action in a bind after torqueing action screws and will easily cause the issues you're experiencing. Easy to check contact of action to inletting & to pillar by putting a small dab of plumbers putty/silly putty even a good sized booger in these areas then remount action to stock and check. Give it a try. Its cheap & quick & might solve your problem. Sorry, I'm fresh out of boogers right now