Can you make a barrel a Hummer?

[johara1]

Roger, I hope to find a few more before i hang it up but i seem to be running out life faster than finding them……. jim

 

[6BRinNZ]

Johara1 - does a hummer shoot smaller in "no wind" or is it in the wind that the hummer shows itself?

 

[johara1]

At long range i never seen a no wind situation, So the hummer will make up for what you can't see. Really good barrel will do good also but the hummer is a cut above. I had groups of 4 in or under an inch and one opened it up to a 2" group. These are excellent barrels but average in the wind. The hummer may have given me that one shot i'm looking for, that is the difference……… jim

 

[dkhunt14]

I had one too; I called it grouper. That barrel grouped knots with 8 to 9 shots in the 1 and 2 inch range even when the wind was blowing. The magic part was it seemed to always find the center. Back in 2003 and 2004 I saw one that was just as good if not better. The guy knew nothing about loading but you would not know it if you saw it shoot. The guy quit shooting after 2 years when the barrel went away. He told me the barrel was like magic. It could do no wrong. Matt

 

[butchlambert]

Yes, I think a barrel maker can make a hummer. All it takes is a perfectly homonegous stainless steel barrel blank gundrilled, reamed, rifled and lapped to zero tolerances in bore, groove, land shape and twist rate with a uniform finish smoothness. It's perfect in every sense. In my opinion, that's a hummer barrel; at least to start with. They'll deform and unbalance bullets the least.

What the 'smith does chambering, crowning then fitting it to the receiver then the fitting the receiver to the stock as well as what the reloader does making ammo for it and the shooter does holding, aiming and shooting it at a target ends up being, it may well shoot in the sevens instead of the zeros.

On the other hand, the more imperfections there are in the finished barrel to start with, the harder it is to make it shoot like hummer's do regareless of how it's managed thereafter.

Last big issue of such thing's I'm well aware of is when Al Hauser(?) retired from Hart Rifle Barrels in the late 1980's or thereabouts. He made most of the "hummer" 30 caliber barrels used in NRA match rifle competition and they had a long track record of winners and records set with them. I think he made a lot of the smaller caliber ones back then, too. That's when the top ranked competitors switched to Kreiger barrels. But some other good ones came out at the same time.

By the same token, "hummer" ammunition will not shoot in the zeros in a barrel that's not also a hummer (I've heard worst of these types called "shouters") regardless of how it's fit to and shot in an otherwise well built rifle shot by a good marksman.

You're wrong, but it is a good place to start.

 

[BoydAllen]

There has been a lot of guessing about why they are what they are, but no one can tell if a short range benchrest barrel is a hummer except by shooting, and no one can make one on demand. That is why the top shooters, who can afford to, buy very large numbers of the best barrels and test them by shooting. Even then, they may not find a true hummer, but just the best of the very good. I will say that barrels can be significantly improved, but that is a different subject.

 

[jden]

I haven't read all the above posts so excuse me if I say anything already said.

my 2 cents from the point blank PPC world

Yes, I do believe in hummer barrels because I have had several over the years. But,
Your rifle must have a trued action, (Even custom actions need work) a great trigger, Stock, ETC. I have always slugged my barrels and checked for taper. There are so many variables that have to happen during a barrels life that the odds of getting a hummer seems impossible. I'm my opinion there is no one thing that makes a hummer but you can definitely increase your chances of getting a great barrel. Once you have determined that your barrel has some taper and has no Hi,Low spots the next big thing is chambering. Good reamers are a dime a dozen, But a great reamer is darn near impossible to obtain. I've gone through 20 reamers over the years and have had maybe 2 that I consider winners. Finding a great BR gunsmith is the other variable (Good luck with that).
Components are the last variable. Buy the best bullets and powder and experiment. Until you have shot teen aggs I would recommend changing your rifle parts and components until it does. I have some barrels that don't group and am going to play with lapping next year. If I can help anyone just fire off an email.

JD Denoff
Gunsmith, Bullet maker

 

[johara1]

JD. You brought up an interesting subject, all my records were shot on the same action. With different stocks and barrels…. strange…. jim

 

[M14AMU]

No barrel eliminates wind drift. As a friend of mine says "you can't change Physics".

versus...

The Hummer is simply a really great barrel, it may be more wind and load tolerant, but is not impervious to Physics.

If physics cannot be changed, how can a barrel be more wind tolerant?

It can be 'more wind tolerant' by being owned by a shooter that's been reading wind 50 years or more!!

 

[Bart B.]

But in my opinion, that's caused by different cross wind speeds in different range bands. And one cannot see all the wind changes at all ranges between muzzle and target. Bullets will drift more at long ranges from a given cross wind only in the first third of the range than if only in the last third. The wind also blows at different speeds for different heights above the line of sight and how much varies with terrain; makes corrections difficult in some places.

Johara- My last post was an attempt to counter the above opinion. In effect, it becomes pretty evident that one has a great shooting barrel.

If what I mentioned about winds near and far as well as different heights above the line of sight is not true, then will someone please explain why so I'll understand my errors. Then perhaps we can challenge all the software programs calculating a bullet's wind drift as well as wind turbine farm engineers calculations of wind speed above the ground.

 

[Bart B.]

Bart, You as a long range shooter never seen the hummer barrel work as much as short range shooter do.What a hummer does eliminate the yaw or pitch of the bullet as it exits the muzzle. The stable bullet is less affected by the conditions. So the bullet will hold it path better than one that isn't as stable exiting the muzzle. They may both shoot equal but a 1MPH. wind change may move the average inches and the hummer will shoot through the slight change. I see you have a hard time accepting this, but real and they are not affected the slight pick ups and let offs. Don't get me wrong they have to be tuned and you have to do your part but they help to a 10 or an X while with an average barrel will be an 9 or an 8. The first indicator is when you hold into a pick up and thats where the bullet goes……. jim

I've seen barrels shoot 30 caliber 168's and 190's in the zeros at 100 yards, if that qualifies for short range humming. And one of my own 30 calibers put 30 shots consecutive shots inside 5 inches at 1000 yards testing loads which, to me, is long range humming.

I don't believe a bullet with a 1% less BC caused by microscopic yaw and pitch (which increases drag) will drift at any different speed in a given crosswind than a perfectly balanced one with zero yaw and pitch. Their shape and weight's the same and are equally effected by cross winds. But the perfectly balanced one with a tiny bit higher BC will move less sideways over a given range band because it's time of flight across it is less.

However, I'm interested in more theory of how any short range barrel can shoot through wind changes; just seems physically impossible to me.

 

[LHSmith]

Once I got a barrel I could have total confidence in, I learned that those wind drift tables are not gospel.... and you don't need a hummer bbl. to confirm that. Many competitive barrels tuned to a certain load will shoot much better in a L-R vs. a R-L (or vice-versa).
The one thing in common with these hummer threads is that those who believe in them have actually experienced them.....and these are veteran competitors who do have a clue about what's going on.

 

[6BRinNZ]

Bart, You as a long range shooter never seen the hummer barrel work as much as short range shooter do.What a hummer does eliminate the yaw or pitch of the bullet as it exits the muzzle. The stable bullet is less affected by the conditions. So the bullet will hold it path better than one that isn't as stable exiting the muzzle. They may both shoot equal but a 1MPH. wind change may move the average inches and the hummer will shoot through the slight change. I see you have a hard time accepting this, but real and they are not affected the slight pick ups and let offs. Don't get me wrong they have to be tuned and you have to do your part but they help to a 10 or an X while with an average barrel will be an 9 or an 8. The first indicator is when you hold into a pick up and thats where the bullet goes……. jim

I've seen barrels shoot 30 caliber 168's and 190's in the zeros at 100 yards, if that qualifies for short range humming. And one of my own 30 calibers put 30 shots consecutive shots inside 5 inches at 1000 yards testing loads which, to me, is long range humming.

I don't believe a bullet with a 1% less BC caused by microscopic yaw and pitch (which increases drag) will drift at any different speed in a given crosswind than a perfectly balanced one with zero yaw and pitch. Their shape and weight's the same and are equally effected by cross winds. But the perfectly balanced one with a tiny bit higher BC will move less sideways over a given range band because it's time of flight across it is less.

However, I'm interested in more theory of how any short range barrel can shoot through wind changes; just seems physically impossible to me.

Thing is they can't (ballistics are what they are) but relatively they can...if you see the distinction.

If bullets didn't follow ballistic theory we would be pretty much stuffed.

Its all about perception and the definition of a hummer - I have read plenty about "hummers" and the definition and understanding of what defines a hummer differs significantly.

For me I believe that some shoot better relatively; still adhering to the ballistic laws - and long may the magical live for the rest.

 

[338 Mollett]

I gotta get one of those hummer barrels one that mysteriously corrects the bullet half way down range,and while I'm at it a driver hummer that does the same when I hit 20 yds at the woods,better yet a bat when I played baseball every pop up would go out of the park ;D

 

[eddief]

I may be crazy, but I think harmonics, ignition system consistency and a decrease in the amplitude of an oscillation as a result of energy being drained from the system to overcome frictional or other resistive forces have more to do with a certain barrel than we think.

Kind of like the "perfect storm" where everything just fits together and works in harmony

Like a perfect marriage between the wife and a husband.......few and far between

 

[Bart B.]

Yes, I think a barrel maker can make a hummer. All it takes is a perfectly homonegous stainless steel barrel blank gundrilled, reamed, rifled and lapped to zero tolerances in bore, groove, land shape and twist rate with a uniform finish smoothness. It's perfect in every sense. In my opinion, that's a hummer barrel; at least to start with. They'll deform and unbalance bullets the least.

What the 'smith does chambering, crowning then fitting it to the receiver then the fitting the receiver to the stock as well as what the reloader does making ammo for it and the shooter does holding, aiming and shooting it at a target ends up being, it may well shoot in the sevens instead of the zeros.

On the other hand, the more imperfections there are in the finished barrel to start with, the harder it is to make it shoot like hummer's do regareless of how it's managed thereafter.

Last big issue of such thing's I'm well aware of is when Al Hauser(?) retired from Hart Rifle Barrels in the late 1980's or thereabouts. He made most of the "hummer" 30 caliber barrels used in NRA match rifle competition and they had a long track record of winners and records set with them. I think he made a lot of the smaller caliber ones back then, too. That's when the top ranked competitors switched to Kreiger barrels. But some other good ones came out at the same time.

By the same token, "hummer" ammunition will not shoot in the zeros in a barrel that's not also a hummer (I've heard worst of these types called "shouters") regardless of how it's fit to and shot in an otherwise well built rifle shot by a good marksman.

You're wrong, but it is a good place to start.

Please explain why you think I'm wrong.

 

[jbhotrod]

I know this is a old topic, but I figured since I had a few questions on the same subject, theres no point in starting a new topic.


I saw Mr Tony Boyer had some success recently using Bartlein barrels. Does anyone know how many barrels Mr Boyer goes through?

Recently the consensus seems to be that Bartlein probably makes the most consistent barrels out there as far as bore/groove diameter and land/groove width dimensions.

How many barrels would yall say a top notch short range BR shooter tests before settling on the best one?

Put another way, how many barrels would one have to test, on average, to win at something like the Super Shoot? Provided everything else was done just as well as the other competitors.