Can you make a barrel a Hummer?

[LHSmith]

It's the same thing going on that seasoned competitors experience with many good quality match barrels, some will shoot a certain load smaller in a specific wind condition......some will shoot smallest in a L>R, some combinations will favor R>L.
A hummer just does it better and may be more indifferent as to wind direction. IIRC as described in TB's book, a good match bbl. will allow the shooter to avoid any hold-off with a 1 hr. change in the flag tails ( 1 hr = the tails @ 60 degrees to ground), a great bbl. = 2 hr. change ( 45 degree) , and a hummer a 3 hr. change ( 30 degree)

 

[johara1]

A hummer is found not by brand, and not by finish, not by lapping and not by bore or groove size. The best part iv'e seen some that that didn't have much rifling for the first 6-8 " and and they would still hammer. When you find one don't waste it like most do. That is why i test for one soon as i get them to shoot small, I shoot left and right conditions with the same point of aim, when you sent 3 shots down each condition and you find a hole and not a weather report it's a keeper…… jim

 

[Bart B.]

It's the same thing going on that seasoned competitors experience with many good quality match barrels, some will shoot a certain load smaller in a specific wind condition......some will shoot smallest in a L>R, some combinations will favor R>L.
A hummer just does it better and may be more indifferent as to wind direction. IIRC as described in TB's book, a good match bbl. will allow the shooter to avoid any hold-off with a 1 hr. change in the flag tails ( 1 hr = the tails @ 60 degrees to ground), a great bbl. = 2 hr. change ( 45 degree) , and a hummer a 3 hr. change ( 30 degree)

I fail to grasp the reasoning that a good match barrel will allow the shooter to avoid any hold-off with any amount of wind angle change.

I think a constant wind coming from 90 degrees to line of fire will cause twice the horizontal drift distance at a given range as the same wind from 30 degrees from the line of fire, 41% more than 45 dgrees but only 15% more than from 60 degrees. If this ain't reality, then all the ballistic software out there has bad data for cross wind effects on horizontal drift caused by cross winds.

Someone, please help me understand.

 

[Terry]

No barrel eliminates wind drift. As a friend of mine says "you can't change Physics".

The Hummer is simply a really great barrel, it may be more wind and load tolerant, but is not impervious to Physics.

 

[Bart B.]

No barrel eliminates wind drift. As a friend of mine says "you can't change Physics".

versus...

The Hummer is simply a really great barrel, it may be more wind and load tolerant, but is not impervious to Physics.

If physics cannot be changed, how can a barrel be more wind tolerant?

 

[johara1]

It don't eliminate wind drift completely but the let ups or pickups you can't see 1-2 mph it will hold in. the wind doesn't move the bullet as much. Maybe i'm not painting a good picture but once you have you will get the idea, you can do no wrong,till it goes bad then you screw on an average barrel and reality sets in…… jim

 

[savagedasher]

Look up the word( hummer). I think if I was going to take any of the slang words they would be the base ball ones or the noise that power lines made when the wind was blowing. Larry

 

[Bart B.]

It don't eliminate wind drift completely...

I don't think it eliminates wind drift at all. A given wind blows the same regardless of the barrel used that shoots the bullet out at the same speed for each.

The above aside, if one can tell the difference between perfect bullets spinning perfectly to others a tiny bit unbalanced enough to have a fraction of a percent less BC so the fraction of a percent of more wind drift caused by their slower time of flight can be seen, then the diffrence may be visible. A 1 MPH cross wind causes .285" drift at 200 yards for a perfectly balanced 95-gr. 24 caliber HPBT bullet with a .480 G1 BC. If that bullet's unbalanced enough to have a .477 BC, its drift at 200 yards will be a couple thousandths more.

 

[johara1]

Bart, You as a long range shooter never seen the hummer barrel work as much as short range shooter do.What a hummer does eliminate the yaw or pitch of the bullet as it exits the muzzle. The stable bullet is less affected by the conditions. So the bullet will hold it path better than one that isn't as stable exiting the muzzle. They may both shoot equal but a 1MPH. wind change may move the average inches and the hummer will shoot through the slight change. I see you have a hard time accepting this, but real and they are not affected the slight pick ups and let offs. Don't get me wrong they have to be tuned and you have to do your part but they help to a 10 or an X while with an average barrel will be an 9 or an 8. The first indicator is when you hold into a pick up and thats where the bullet goes……. jim

 

[savagedasher]

Bart, You as a long range shooter never seen the hummer barrel work as much as short range shooter do.What a hummer does eliminate the yaw or pitch of the bullet as it exits the muzzle. The stable bullet is less affected by the conditions. So the bullet will hold it path better than one that isn't as stable exiting the muzzle. They may both shoot equal but a 1MPH. wind change may move the average inches and the hummer will shoot through the slight change. I see you have a hard time accepting this, but real and they are not affected the slight pick ups and let offs. Don't get me wrong they have to be tuned and you have to do your part but they help to a 10 or an X while with an average barrel will be an 9 or an 8. The first indicator is when you hold into a pick up and thats where the bullet goes……. jim

Hummer barrel is one that was easy to tune and had a longer sweet spot. That is what I was told by my elders. Me being 74 it Nice to be able to ask my elders at the range. They pretty much agreed it was a term the shot range shooter used. It fun watching them shoot at 25 yd and seeing them look at the bullet hole size with a magnifying glass. One thing they all agree on the sooner you stabilize a bullet the better it shoots. Larry

 

[Bart B.]

Jim, I understand what you're saying; I agree with that completely. It's sorta covered in my post. Better balanced bullets have slightly higher BC's and are a bit less effected by cross winds. But only a very small amount, but they all are effected. No bullet in flight escapes the effects of cross winds; physically impossible.

Having seen targets of 30 caliber 190's tested for several 10-shot groups fired at 100 yards shooting in the ones, then shot them at ranges from 300 to 1000 yards, they do shoot more accurate as they're virtually yaw and pitch free upon exit and stay that way all the way down range. Sierra used to sell plain brown boxes of 1000 of them (168, 180, 190 and 200 gr. HPMK's), still coated with the lanolin lube. They shot 30 to 40 percent more accurate than their degreased and polished ones sold in green boxes of 100 each that tested in the twos and threes.

I have held off into wind pickups and away from letups and the bullet struck point of aim; shot a wide 10 instead of an X. But in my opinion, that's caused by different cross wind speeds in different range bands. And one cannot see all the wind changes at all ranges between muzzle and target. Bullets will drift more at long ranges from a given cross wind only in the first third of the range than if only in the last third. The wind also blows at different speeds for different heights above the line of sight and how much varies with terrain; makes corrections difficult in some places.

 

[johara1]

Bart, You are right, long range i don't go by the line of sight in wind corrections and i do know how to check the wind at different yardages. The bullets to day are much better than back 5-10 years ago, but short range guys are way ahead of the game in bullet quality. They laid the ground work that has now reached the long range shooters. I remember when 7" group was a winner but now i saw a good 1000 yd. shooter tell me he was 4th. on a relay with a 3.1" group. What i'm trying to relate to you is things have gotten to the point that you will see 1" groups in a short time in 1000 yds. A hummer is part of this mix but you need the rest of the things that go with it,the quality barrels and bullets far surpass anything 5 years ago. This all started with the guys up close making better components and the long range guys picking up on it and now you can see things you never thought possible ……. jim

 

[LHSmith]

Lets look at short range BR competition. There typically are flags every ~ 20 yards up to 100 yds, then ~ every 30 yds from 100 to 200. Every lane has flags. ....a major comp. can have hundreds of them in addition to wind probes. Some also place flags flanking the field in order to catch oncoming conditions early. The veteran shooters KNOW that particular ranges ( the range locale where it is contested , i.e. Kelbly's, St. Louis, Mainville) idiosyncrasies, and place flags at key yardages that years of experience tells them that due to that venues terrain a push there will have the biggest effect on bullet movement. So there is not much going on out there that these seasoned shooters can't read.

 

[johara1]

I understand what your saying, but the quality of the barrel is what separates the shooter ranking if all are equal…… Do you think the top shooters are going to Kelblys with an average barrel? You can put a wind flag every yard and it won't change thing of putting and average barrel up against a hummer……. jim

 

[LHSmith]

But in my opinion, that's caused by different cross wind speeds in different range bands. And one cannot see all the wind changes at all ranges between muzzle and target. Bullets will drift more at long ranges from a given cross wind only in the first third of the range than if only in the last third. The wind also blows at different speeds for different heights above the line of sight and how much varies with terrain; makes corrections difficult in some places.

Johara- My last post was an attempt to counter the above opinion. In effect, it becomes pretty evident that one has a great shooting barrel.

 

[johara1]

LHSmith, I understand now, I have the advantage of having shot across the corse with some very great shooters and having shot short range with the best also you will see thing that carry from one to the other. When i started to shoot long range BR. i took a lot of information with me from both and applied it and adapted so also and it does pay off. My first barrel in short range was a hummer and i thought boy is this easy and when it left so did easy…….. Those who never shot one have no idea what it can do, if you do your part.
I was talking to Dave Bruno about this and like he said you are only as good as your last barrel,and if you don't have a great one you can get into the top 10 or 20 but you know you won't win with out a great barrel and hope you don't get caught in a big switch…… jim

 

[savagedasher]

Archery shooting is the best reference to bench rest shooting and long range. We don't have hummer bows , we have to make arrows hum same as shooters do bullets. In archery we have one advantage. We normal have just 12 arrows that we have to tune. First we buy the straight an the properly spine for the pound we shoot. We cut and weigh them to one 01 of a grain. Next we make the all shoot one hole in paper without vanes. Then we put vanes on them and repeat the same on paper testing at different distance. A arrow that doesn't hum can shoot 5' slower at 40yd.and is effected by wind. we can test this just because we can recover the same arrow and do it again. We shoot 20 to 80 yds. I can show you the difference .With speed and target size.

 

[johara1]

A hummer is a term used by some shooters to tell you of a condition of a barrel that can shoot better in the wind than other excellent barrels. It can shoot through conditions that others will be pushed by the condition……. not sticks and strings….. jim

 

[savagedasher]

A hummer is a term used by some shooters to tell you of a condition of a barrel that can shoot better in the wind than other excellent barrels. It can shoot through conditions that others will be pushed by the condition……. not sticks and strings….. jim

Stick and string will show you time after time. the same thing happens with arrows.
and the reason it happens. Larry

 

[expiper]

Hi Terry (the OP),,,Merry Christmas,,,,well you have heard everybody elses' ramblings and guessin,,,here is mine,,,I have heard this discussed around many pot-bellied stoves and campfires at shootin matches,,,and the most astute of the story tellers have learned over the yrs. that bbls. that are exceptional such as we all want are made at the mill when extruded ,and have the "perfect" ammount of or lack thereof stress and anomolies in the metal,,,,some say they "think" the best comes from the middle of the extrusion when the flow rate is constant (no hic-ups in feed rate) and never use the first and last drop in the cut pile,,,,I have seen "hummer' bbls x-rayed ,,magnafluxed,,black lited,,ringed-dinged etc and some look terrible on film,,,and some so-so bbls have clear water x-rays and wont shoot competitvly ,,,grrrr,,,It is sorta like trying to find a good woman,,,,you gotta go thru a bunch of em to find a good one ,,,and most of us cant afford to do so!!!! wink,,,,,,I have had ~40 match grade bbls and 2 (TWO) that I thought to be "hummers".....to quote a very famos and successful shooter,,,"if you have a hummer bbl , anything you do works,,,any powder appropriate for the cal,any good bullet,any primer,etc,,,,when that bbl is wore out ,,,you need psycoanalysis ,,,,NUTHIN works",,,hahhaha.....Roger