Can we talk custom action steel types?

[Dimner]

I see alot of people love the lower priced custom actions, the ones that are $900-$1,200 bucks. Kauger, origin, TL3, mack bros, a half dozen others that I cannot remember off hand.

Alot, if not nearly all are 416 stainless. Then I see some folks who are very vocal about 416 being really bad steel for a receiver. And that confuses me.

Is it just that 416 is not the best if you want to place top three in long range bench rest? Which, really isn't the market for these entry level custom actions. Or... is 416 just a bad choice at any time?

It's probably somewhere in between, but I'm completely uneducated as to the particulars. The old adage "can you shoot the difference?" comes to mind. But I have no idea at what point that difference will start showing up.

I'm not really interested in a long range benchrest rig for my current build. I want to build something that goes out to 300. 500 field prone shooting on fun days. But I doubt I would ever compete on this build over 300.

 

[DaveTooley]

You can not shoot the difference

 

[Walt Krafft]

If there was a real problem using 416 for actions, people would not continue to use it.

 

[LVLAaron]

And some are aluminum.


Whatever the steel is that ARC uses is my favorite. Again, it doesn’t really matter, but it feels unlike any other.

They wont disclose what it is but you cant engrave/cut it.

 

[Dimner]

So why do some people poo-poo 416?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

It's not at all a bad choice. It machines well, for stainless, is heat treatable and stable and shock resistant at appropriate hardness levels. It has a low coefficient of friction and high yield strength. All good characteristics for making actions or barrels. I don't see the problem. I consider it a very good option for this purpose. I also consider Borden actions as the best of the best and he uses 416 for his BR actions. It might be better to ask, why not to use it. I'd say the reason comes down to heat treat capabilities more than any other factor other than the biggie...personal preference.

 

[luckyshot52]

2nd G&G. Whoever questions 416 obviously doesn’t know anything about metallurgy. Chrome moly steel, is also good, but requires proper heat treat and finish machining after heat treat.

 

[Dimner]

Is 416R any different than 416?

 

[Hal]

Dimner
I think the "R" stands for remelt.

Hal

 

[Jonnyofalltrades]

I was pretty sure it stood for "resulfurized". As in free-machining.
Having sulfur added increases the machineability.

 

[WSnyder]

Early on some custom manufacturers preferred chromoly because it was easier to keep things straight during heat treat. I think most have figured out the stainless process better now.

 

[butchlambert]

And some are aluminum.


Whatever the steel is that ARC uses is my favorite. Again, it doesn’t really matter, but it feels unlike any other.

They wont disclose what it is but you cant engrave/cut it.

Unless it is case hardened, I wouldn't want my receiver that hard.

 

[STS]

The only downside to 416 that I’ve ever seen is that it’s more prone to galling than cm. It requires a bit more diligence with the lube.

 

[shortgrass]

From Defiance Machines' web site; "All material pre-hardened prior to machining to prevent changing dimensions or shape during heat treat". All Defiance actions are made of 416R. Bolts are made of 4340CM. I would say all bolt action receivers that are made of CM or S.S. are made of pre-hardened material. The reason, there are thick sections and thin sections in a bolt action receiver. With the varying thicknesses, the receiver would twist itself out of shape during quench. Pre-hardened steels are readily available from the mills. Both CM and S.S. are suitable materials to make a rifle action out of. If they were not, can you imagine the law suits that would come from using inferior materials? Anyone other than me here, that has chambered CM barrels? There is a difference in the machining 416R verses 4140 (or 4142, or 4130 , or 4340, or 4150). In my observations, after chambering for 30+yrs, and job shop machining for almost 50yrs (it will be 50 this coming June) feed rates are reduced when cutting 4140. A very good reason in itself for using 416R, increased feed rates. And, S.S. is popular amongst many shooters, believing it is "better". Case Hardening is a whole other subject.

 

[jackieschmidt]

The majority of manufacturers us 416 or 416R for one reason, machinability.

While not being as strong as 17-4, 4140, 4340, etc in all of the areas that metals are judged, iIt is strong enough for the application at hand.

That pre hardenned means they are buying commercial heat treat bars.

As a note, Bat uses 17-4 at around H1050 heat treat. They do their own in house heat treating. ARC uses 4340 at a rather high RC hardness number. To arrive at that, I am sure they do their own in house heat treating as well. Both of these are superior to 416.

As for the aluminum body actions, the critical part of the reliever that actually holds the pressure is usually Chrome Moly.

I liken the abundance of actions, and other shooting paraphernalia to the abundance of performance car parts.

Back in the “old days”, the choice Of parts for high performance builds were limited to modifying factory OEM parts or purchasing the few but very expensive aftermarket offerings. But now, with the advent of of CAD/CAM, everybody is making something to satisfy the needs of the buying public.

Just pick up a JEGGS Catelogue. It is full of cylinder heads, cranks, rods, blocks, valve train equipment and just about everything needed to build just about anything you wish for. And, at prices well within the reach of everyday Hot Rodders.

When I first got into extreme accuracy shooting, aftermarket parts were rare, and expensive. Now, while not cheap, there are an abundance of manufacturers producing an abundance of items to supply all of the varied Disciplines.

 

[vonb]

In our quest to find that "perfect" action, I don't think there is such a thing. They all have pros and cons.

 

[mauser284]

416R is a terrible steel. It's only positives are that it machines really easily almost like butter so it is easy on tooling and it is slightly more corrossion resistant than 41XX/43XX steels. It's physical characteristics in every way that matters is inferioir to for instance 4350. That said your 41XX series of steel are grossly inferior by todays standards and what we have available to use. If you want to look at what is available look at the knife hobby.

No action today especialy at the outragious prices they want for a rather dumpy poorly finished, poorly blued rifle in a plastic stock should have an action or barrel made with 416R or anything lower than 4350 in chromoly steel. The bolts and reciever should be forged then machined at the stupidly high price points demanded and poor attention to fit, finish and stock quality!

I am assuming Crucible Steel still has it's specifications for all of the steels it makes and ANSI standards. You can compared 416R to 4350 for instance. Do not take my word for it research it yourself! I am fairly sure that all 416R in America comes from Crucible Steel and that 416R which is re-sulferized so after making a good steel they add sulphur back to it which does not make a good steel back into it to make it easy to machine. Last I checked the only people that use 416R is the firearm manufacturing industry and it is only used in civilian rifles not miltary rifles. You also will not see 416R in any aviation barrels, tank barrels, mortar tubes, artiliry barrels or any of their recievers, lock work or breech plugs.

I do not have an issue with 416R what I do have an issue with is the nonsense marketing bull we get from gun makers and barrel makers about 416R it is definetly not worth a premium that is for sure and it is not a great steel! I am not a huge fan of 4130,4140,4150 as these are ancient now and we can do far better. I do not like it when people pee in my face and then tell me it's raining! ANSI 4350 should be the minimum in the 2020's and forward for a reciever and barrel anything less is like making the gun parts out of pop cans and card board! If they want to make them out of 416R they should at the very least not charge a premium for it and pass the cost savings in machining time and longer tooling life onto the customer.

If they did not resulferize it than 416 would not be terrible but we could still do better! It would be like making me a cutlas or knife from 1095 steel and then trying to convince me you where using the finest material known to man for sword or knife making when it fact that would only be true if we where talking about steel 100+ years ago. It is not a bad steel it just is not anything new or premium or the best steel for making a knife from by todays standards!

I do not like liars, thiefs, or people that are mean and cruel to women, children or animals! You do not have to lie to market something well it is a lot easier but it is not a must!

I know someone on here will know this and be able to correct me.

I think the Mauser 98 is 1030 or 1050 steel and the US Ordance Department was not at all impressed with the steel used in the Mauser actions and I think the Springfield 1903 was 41XX steel so 4120, 4130, 4140 or in those realms. So you think steel formulations have stood still since the Springfield 1903 rifle was designed and built? You think that those steels are still relavant today?

 

[Fuj]

416 got some bad rep from un-heat treated actions that had a more
open top for loading and ejecting, along with a large mag well cut.
These actions were meant for light weight hunting rifles, and were
not good enough for the long bull barrel the guy's were experimenting
with. It was'nt the material, it was it's un-intended use......The "R" as I
always understood it in the shop referred to "R"ifle barrel grade 416 SS