Can I trust Leupold Dual Dove mounts for a 100% hold?

[VaniB]

Wondering if you precision target shooters would apply loc-tite to everything, including onto the pivoting dovetail joints inside the mounts? Wondering if I should have applied loc-tite or epoxy to the surfaces between the mount and the barrel too?

It seems my custom smithed Rem 700 in 6.5 Creedmoor can't keep all 5 shots in one cluster. I shoot 100 yard 5 shot groups, and I'll often have 3 shots or 4 shots inside of a one hole cluster in the one's, two's, or 3's , but invariably 1 or 2 shots often seperate and make it a 3/4" group. The barrel is free-floated and I never get it hot. Wondering if the mounts are capable of budging. (Yes....maybe it's just my shooting.)

 

[swampshooter]

Put some black, or any color really. nail polish on the joint where the mount and rifle join. If there's any movement you will see the cracked nail polish. I've never had any luck getting dove tails to hold, even on a .22.

 

[seymour fish]

VaniB, They are junk. Ditch them. Prolly has nothing to do with your groups, but eventually you will pull the rifle out of the case and discover your zero has shifted. Seymour

 

[CatShooter]

Back in the 60's and 70's, (when there was not much else to use) the Marine Corps welded these mounts in place... they are THAT bad!

 

[fdshuster]

I used them ( the front dovetail type) with the adjustable (not) windage screws in the base, always kept the dovetail clean and lightly lubed, and they still developed slop to the point there was no resistance when turning them the required 90 degrees. Had to make shims that fit between the bottom surface of the front ring and the top of the base.

Thankfully the Burris Signature Zee rings became available and I eventually scrapped them all. As said: Junk !

The literature included with all Nightforce scopes includes the recommendation that they not be used.

 

[MrMajestic]

Thankfully the Burris Signature Zee rings became available and I eventually scrapped them all.

A second here!

 

[VaniB]

Good Night!! I am honestly stunned with what I'm reading here! For 7 years I avoided the standard Leupold ring sets that have the adjustable back ring windage screw, believing that it was the weak spot in the mounting sytem. I believed that the dual dovetail rings was a fixed and solid sytem of mounting and was the way to go! What reinfrced this belief was my having read feedback testimony from hunters stating that the dual dovetail rings stand up to heavy recoil and provide them with the utmost confidence that they need in large caliber rifles. So, I figured I sure can't go wrong with using them on low recoiling cartridges too, and I put them on my first custom smithed rifle which provided me with consistant 1/4" MOA groups. Those first time results lead me to believe that they would always work just as well on ALL my future target rifles too. That was 7 years ago!!

I always lap the rings and have perfect alignment when checking everything with my Kokepelli bars. This rifle sighted practically dead-on during my first visit to the range. But the annoying flyers that spoil tight clusters numerous range trips later have puzzled me.

The input here is indeed VERY enlightening to me.



EDIT; I'm still stunned....and want to make sure we are all on the same page. This is the front and back rings I'm describing and that you are saying is "junk" ......right?

 

[MrMajestic]

That's them...
Common sense statement that has been said on here by many, "Look what those in the Winner's Circle are using".

 

[Area Man]

That's them...
Common sense statement that has been said on here by many, "Look what those in the Winner's Circle are using".

What's a good ring / base combination for a Model 12 Savage?

 

[fdshuster]

VaniB: If your primary consideration is recoil, and you have been happy with the standard dovetail rings, then by all means continue to use them. Your thoughts on using lock-tite (blue?) sound like they have an advantage in keeping them tight. For an even better guarantee that they will not move, would not JB Weld also work although we're now talking "permanent".

My primary consideration has been the ability to quickly remove a scope, then some time later, to re-install it, WITHOUT ANY SIGHT-IN REQUIRED, something I can easily do with the Weaver/Picatinney style bases, just by removing the 2 cross-bolt screws and sliding the entire scope & ring assembly off the base mount. The ability to use .010, .020, etc moa base mounts for more "up-clicks" is another consideration for me.

None of this is possible with the dovetail mounts, my main reasons for not using them since the very excellent Burris Signature Zee rings became available.

All my rifles are low recoil, the "biggest" being 30-06 which I rarely shoot anymore, the next "biggest" being a pair of 308's that see moderate use, but both are fitted with brakes, and the Bench one weighs 15 pounds. The remaining cartridges are of the 6BR and "smaller" types, so as I said, recoil is not a factor for me.

No, I never used the opposing screws in the base mount of the type I described. Always saw it as a way of putting a lot of torque on the scope tube(s) when moving the rear windage screws, while the dovetail upfront remains stationary. In that sense, I see the opposing windage screw design as useless. Possibly the reason why Nightforce recommends that design (?) not be used.

If I did need more windage I removed the scope and slightly turned the front dovetail using a 1" dia. steel rod, all trial and error until I had the necessary windage correction. Of course, there was still no way to cant the front of the scope down for more up-clicks.

Try the lock-tite, seems like a good idea, and for a more permanent bond, JB Weld would also guarantee no movement. No offense intended on your use of the dovetails, I understand many use them.

 

[Preacher]

Nightforce recommends that you DO NOT use them on their scopes ..

 

[VaniB]

FD, thanks for the input. Gentlemen, if the Leupold Dual Dovetail rings and mounts I am using are not ridgid enough for precision shooting, then what do you recommend?

I realize that most folks are inclined to buy the Burris ZEE rings for the benefit of being able to easily adjust the elevation of their scope with the Zee inserts. My exclusive shooting discipline is to be able to shoot 100 yrd, 5 shot groups into sub 1/2" groups off of my Hart rest at the public range. So, the Zee insert feature in itself is of no benefit for my 100 yard precision shooting. Is there another feature of Zee rings that I'm not understanding. For that matter, I see that Burris offers Zee rings with the insets in Dual Dovetail style too that look to lock up no different then my Leupold DD rings!

Whatever I mightreplace my Leupold DD bases and rings with, I prefer not to place a single one piece scope mount accross the top of my Remington chamber.

Anything in mind? Thanks.

 

[MarkS]

I used the Leupole DD, until I could not get the scope zeroed due to running out of adjustments. I changed the Weaver bases and Burris Sig ZEE. That is all I buy now. The DD are very strong and should be accurate.

Mark Schronce

 

[dreever]

I'm with fdshuster. If weight isn't a consideration I use Badger rings and 20MOA bases on everything. Torque everything as per Badgers directions and have no worries. Sure they are expensive, but you get what you pay for.

Danny

 

[fdshuster]

VaniB: Your accuracy requirement standard is no greater than ours in the 100 yard portion of our benchrest for score match's. The 10 ring in the pictured targets measures 9/16" in diameter, 6 shots are fired with the high 5 counted for score. All these targets were fired with Burris Signature Zee rings attached to the scopes, Leupold and Nightforces. As is the case with your dovetail mounts, accuracy is not an issue. The vast majority of cartridges used in these match's, out to 500 yards & meters are the 6ppc's, 6BR's and 30 BR's for the closer distance match's and fast twist 6BR's, 6.5x47L, etc. for the further distances.

Another feature? Sure ! I cannot imagine spending the big bucks on the high end Leupold, Nightforce & March scopes and risking ugly and de-valueing ring mark damage. I realize it is possible to have no ring marks with conventional rings with metal to metal contact, but the risk of damage is always there, no matter how perfectly they may be lapped. Cannot happen with the Signatures. And even if your distance is limited to 100 yards, there can still be a time when a lot of adjustment can be used up to sight-in, so then you will not be looking thru the center of the lens's. Burris recommends correcting by use of the offset inserts for the final 3" before "clicking" to center. I also find that the nylon inserts grip the scope tube without any need to over-tighten (and snap off?) the ring screws.

Back to your original question: If your dovetail mounts are solidly mounted without any movement, I would not suspect there to be any accuracy problems.

 

[Greyfox]

Although I'd have to agree with everyone who has criticized the dual dovetails and have praised the Burris Signature Zee rings, I seriously doubt that your rings and bases are the source of your problems. Are you shooting over wind flags? If you aren't then that's the first place I would look. It is a total waste of powder, bullets and barrel life to try for short range precision accuracy without using wind flags. If you just want to hear the rifle go bang, that's another thing altogether.

If you are using wind flags and are proficient at reading them, then look at your rest, stock, shooting etiquette, etc.
I agree that you should get some better mounts, but I don't think that will fix your problem. BTW- Harrell's Precision sells Davidson style bases and benchrest type rings for reasonable prices. I'm thinking $85 will get you a set of both.

Rick

 

['Freak]

I turn them in and do all alignment using 1” steel round then leave the things be and never managed over decades of use to shoot the double dovetail rings loose on heavy recoiling T/C Contender barrels.

 

[Dans40X]

Dab some moly grease on the dovetails & turn them in to the base(s).
If you are able to turn them in with little resistance-PITCH- the forward ring in the trash & purchase new ones.
The front scope ring is doing ALL the work under recoil.

243 Blue LocTite can be applied to the base screws,but is not required on the ring cap screws.

I have numerous XP-100's,XP-100R's in .221FB to 350 Rem Mag & Freedom Arms revolvers w/ Leupold Dual Dovetail base/ring combinations on them & have not had an issue in 20+ years.

VaniB-
You do not mention the scope that's been mounted in Leupold DD 1 piece or 2 piece base(s)?
Does the scope track properly??

 

[VaniB]

Gents there was a lot of useful info here on this thread. Thanks for the help.

I will proceed with removing these front and back Leupold mounts from the rifle, leaving each front and back dovetail ring half undisturbed in each mount, soak these assemblies in acetone, air dry it, and then fill the dovetail pockets with JB Weld. When the epoxy is fully dry overnight, I will mount these assemblies back onto the barrel, using a generous amount of blue loc-tite on the screw threads, as well as between the base and barrel. Lastly, I will try another scope.

Greyfox, yes, I go for these kind of precision groups using 3 wind flags spread out over the 100 yards, and will not fire each of the 5 shots until the moment the flags are relatively still.
FD Shuster, yes your target at the top is often how I can get 3 or 4 shots of the 5 shots, with the other one or two shots spoiling the group.....and making it a 3/4" group. My goal is to be able to shoot ANY of those 5 targets you displayed the majority of the time. It's because I can do it with my 20 Tac, that this rifle puzzles me.

 

[K22]

If I had it to do over again, I wouldn't opt for any dove tail type scope mounts. Not that I ever experienced any problems that I'm aware of with them; it's just that the design concept of this type of system is inherently flawed in my opinion opening the system up to potential problems.

Like many my age, it was one of the few options available when I got into the sport. I also didn't have the benefit of forums like this one to educate oneself. Now that I'm in the twilight of my shooting hobby I'm not going to spend the money to replace them; it would be just too costly.

I must say however, that with my 223. 22 250, 243, and 308 scoped rifles, all using Leupold the dove tail mounting system, some dual, other with the windage screws at the rear base, I've never experienced any problems holding zero that I would attribute to the mounts. Some of these rifles are precision long range varminters and shoot quite well with these mounting systems. Still I agree with the others, these are not the best option today.