Buyer beware!

[Tommie]

A few days ago I spent over two hours visiting with a very interesting and knowledgeable man. He has been involved in top-level benchrest for 40 years and also manufactures match-grade bullets. He knows many people in the shooting industry on a first name basis. Real "old school" kind of guy who tells it like it is. I don't think it would be appropriate to mention his name, so I won't. What's important is the disturbing information he shared with me.

According to him, several big name gunsmiths are pulling fast ones on their customers. Most common is charging for work that isn't done. These gunsmiths know that the vast majority of their customers will assume that their action really was blueprinted as agreed upon,and paid for). Many times the action received a lick and a promise - at most. But here's the most disturbing piece of information this man shared with me: some gunsmiths play the old switcheroo with customers' barrels. A customer sends a brand new custom barrel and action to the smith for chambering, fitting etc. The gunsmith air gauges the barrel and if it proves to be to the gunsmith's liking, he keeps the customer's barrel and installs a different one. Again, how would the customer know? I asked this man how he knows that this goes on. He replied "Heck, they've bragged about it to me". He wouldn't provide any specific names, but he did say that there are a half dozen of these crooks advertising in 'Precision Shooting' magazine and most are well-known gunsmiths.

I cannot vouch for the validity of the above information. But I can say that the person who told me this has has very high credentials and has no reason to lie to me.

FWIW

Tom

 

[robbor]

There was an article in VH last year about a guy who bought 2 rifle from seperate people, both were supposed to have had action trued and then some, one was suppose to have a hart target trigger or something also. He took both to a smith and the smith removed the barrels, neither had been trued and the target trigger was a rem with the shoe ground off and a nail extended down as the trigger all polished up. Buying used you are asking for trouble, so better know what your getting. I also recall other stories about big name smiths doing sloppy work. I ordered a volquartsen rimfire rifle about 7 years ago, the only thing out of the ordinary that i wante was a barrel that was 20" and not their normal 18" or 20w/ brake. They told me ya ya, piece of cake, 4 months. Three different employees confirmed. After 4 months I had to call them and they told me "by the way" no accuracy guarantee on your rifle, and it will be another 2 weeks. I called every month and received the "2 weeks" answer each time. I decided i would see how long they were going to take. after about 9 month I called the owner, he did notheing, Every once in a while Id get a oddball answer "your barrel is here but no one wants to do it". I tried different empolyees but nothing worked.
I submitted a letter to the BBB at 16 months, yes 16 months. My order was immediately canceled without notifying me. When I called them, they told me I canceled the order, when I questioned them they finally spit it out that the owner canceled the order and I was just impacient in not being able to wait forever for them. They lied through their teeth every time i spoke with them, and never returned a call.

 

[billmo]

This is totally unacceptable but I bet it does happen just like most other products and services are tainted. It really pays to check out who you are dealing with when it comes to sending your money or your parts to anybody. PERIOD. I can truly say that I do know a man that will do what he says and would not cheat anybody if he knew better. Nobody is perfect, I understand that fully. My dealings with Bill Shehane in Charlotte, N C,Scope us Out.com) has proved to be above board and honest as far as I can tell. I have had dealings with Bill since about April of this year and he has done exactly what he said he would do. It would certainly be a surprise to me and a lot of other people I'm sure if this man's name ever came up in any of this kind of "off color" dealings. Only advice I have is CHECK OUT YOUR SMITH and pass any info on good or bad and weed out the trash. I know that sounds harsh but who's money is paying for your rifle? And when you know facts spit it out. That is the only way people know who not to trust. In order to stay in business you must do quality work at a fair price and STAND BEHIND YOUR PRODUCT OR SERVICE.
Fellas, don't whisper this bad info under the table. Expose it and it will go away. Let it go and it will go to your house. Thanks, Bill

 

[alf]

Billmo,
I wrestled with myself on whether I should respond about my dealings with D & B Supply. I could write a small novel on my dealings with them, but I've decided this isn't the proper place to air the laundry. Buyer beware. I will not do business with them again. Bil could teach a graduate course on used car salemanship.

Al.

 

[billmo]

I understand Alf. Let the chips fall where they may. Too many people are getting treated unjustly by guys who are suppose to be professionals. Bill

 

[SDWhirlwind]

There are alot of people now with the movies etc wanting a 'sniper rifle' or other long range rifle or target rifles. Many of these people have way more money then experience. Where there is money to be made very seldom does it take long for a few parasites to emerge.


As stated with the price of 'trueing' a reciever at or exceeding $200 it can be easy money. I am a hobby smith with limited experience and do work only for myself. It doesn't take me but 20-25 minutes to true the front of a Rem reciever and lap the lugs. Don't get into the "single point" recutting of reciever threads and still don't understand how it could improve accuracy much in most cases as I have not had a problem with factory Rem threads being unacceptable. How would anyone with only money and trust ever know if they recieved what they paid for concerning 'trueing'? Pillar bedding is another service that I cannot understand how some charge $200 to almost $300 for?

Also the money made on installing over sized bolt knobs, sako extractors! Once the manufacturers info is removed from the end of a barrel shank probably only the manufacturer could identify it. Difference in price from Shilen down to Douglas to Shaw etc could be money in a greedy smith's pocket. About the only barrels with some degree of identifying would be the 5 groove as I know of no low end manufacturer producing a 5 groove as of yet. Also 3 and 4 groove are out of the norm vs 6 or 8.

Alot of impulse buying to be popular at the range has the smithing community perhaps at it's peak as far as lead times etc. Surely not pointing any fingers at ANY of the popular smiths just stating that the majority of clientel would have no idea if they got what they were charged for on some items/work.

Sorry for my ramblings but this thread stirred up some thoughts/concerns I have had for some time with all the reading I do on different forums.

Respectfully,
Dennis

 

[Eddie Harren]

Now I'm not taking up for anyone who uses decitful business practices but, I'd like to meet the guy who can borescope or air gauge a barrel and tell if it's going to be a shooter. I have stood in a well known barrel makers shop and seen him air gauge a barrel and declare it "just fine for a BR rifle'. Only to see him fit and chamber it and find that it would not shoot under .500".
When I first started shooting BR, 1988, I heard those rumors about a very well known BR gunsmith. "He buys six barrels and fits them all to his rifle, then keeps the 2 best and sells the others to his customers." I've never seen proof one way or the other but he is still in business. I believe that any gunsmith, or any other tradesman for that matter, makes a habit of ripping people off, he or she won't be in business very long. The man I'm referring to is alive and well and prospering today.
Anyone can start a rumor and anyone else can spread it.
JMHO DocEd.

 

[ArtinNC]

alf,
You are right about your laundry, if you don't want to get crucified. AND I agree with your whole post about writing a small novel.
I made a mistake of naming names one time, only one time and that will never happen again. After that one time let everyone find out for them self's, or do some privet investigating.
Art

 

[2knives]

Wow!!!! I agree that we have some buck grabbers out there and I've seen some of their work. One fellow brought me a 700 in 6mm he wanted the action blue printed. When I pulled the barrel off,someone else had put on) I couldn't be leave what I found. The threads in a 700 are 1 1/16 X16 The barrel was threaded 1 1/32 X16 Half the threads it should have had. Another fellow had a V700 in 308 he could get to shoot, someone had glass bedded for him. They didn't remove any wood, just put release on it, put it in the stock with the bedding compound, They didn't even remove the trigger or clean up the action when the were done. I don't think they even removed it after bedding. I spend about 4 hours blue printing a 700. I have a ground arbor 2 times the length of an action, I use it to indicate the action to the bore in the lathe. I face the action then the lugs and re cut the threads. I then indicate the bolt in, face the bolt face and both sides of the lugs. YOU CAN NOT LAP LUGS TRUE WITH THE TRIGGER IN PLACE!!!
YOU CAN NOT FACE AN ACTION IN A 3 JAW CHUCK!!!
Bob Dodd

 

[rhino]

Send your rifle and money to Alan and Dan Warner and you won't ever have to worry about this crap!

I don't think I have ever heard a negative against Alan and Dan, well maybe that they are so anal about measurements and doing a fantastic job.

Warner Tool Company
if only the best will do.

RHINOUT!

 

[1shot]

In regards to the changing of a customers bbl. for an inferior one, I think I'm going to start marking mine in an obscure area with and engraving tool. Better safe than sorry I say.
1shot

 

[constructor]

I've found a few things this last year and suspect a few more.
the biggest problem I have is the smith thinking the customer can't possibly shoot well enough to notice the difference between a properly chambered match barrel and a slap it in the headstock and drill away Shaw.

I had a barrel built by a "reliable" AR smith only to find out it had .057 runout in the middle. AR barrels are too short to reach the spider and couldn't have been done in a steady rest like that so it had to be turned and chambered in both directions with the muzzle wagging in the headstock.
On another the extension was loose and not pinned. Another had the gas port in the wrong location.

 

[chino1969]

There was an article in VH last year about a guy who bought 2 rifle from seperate people, both were supposed to have had action trued and then some, one was suppose to have a hart target trigger or something also.

I read that article and to be honest with you, that fellow didn't have a clue and should have just stayed with factory rifles. A good analogy would be driving a Neon everyday and then buying a Formula 1 car to get into racing. You need to do your homework before you start throwing money around.
Chino69

 

[ultramagbrion]

Caveat Emptor,did I spell that right?)

Its a shame that a few bad apples can create such a worry-some mess but tis the way it is in most any line of service related work.,and the rest of the world for that fact)

From years in the performance engine machining biz I learned that it pays to have a knowledge of what you are asking of your machinist. You dont acctually need to be able to do the work yourself,but a general idea of what to look for when you get your items back helps a tremendous ammount. The ability to measure the finnished product,when possible/practical) is also a huge plus.

Also some "sneeky-ness" on your part doesnt hurt much either.

A few moments spent secretly marking your stuff is time well spent........a couple punch marks or such marks with a dremel can put your wondering mind a little more at ease.

Nothing replaces going with a reputable smith but everyone has a first time,sometime along the way .

Remember...communication is key and knowledge is power.