Burn rate chart

[Longone1]

What burn rate chart do you find to be the most honest? I use a chart only to compare powder rates when looking to replace a powder or when loading for a new cartridge. With all the charts out there it is like opinions, is this pretty much the way it is or are there some that are closer.

Longone

 

[22XC Guy]

Good question...

My shooting partner and I tossed this around late last year, after researching, we decided on using Hodgdon "relative burn rates" chart. Their chart was last updated 02/2011.


Steve

 

[fdshuster]

To me, it does not matter. They are all approximate numbers dependent on who, what, where & when the testing was done. I also use the Hodgdon numbers for a reference only, and only because it's right there in their loading manual.

 

[Kwahe]

Whoa!

I ran across this thread in my meanderings through old topics. I'm dredging it up in order to let those of you who don't know...and perhaps don't have immediate access to QuickLoads...that Norma has an extremely useful burn chart (https://www.norma.cc/en/Ammunition-Academy/om-handladdning/brinntider-for-krut/), one likely not available back when the earth was still cooling during the initial posting above. This burn chart has limitations, of course, but you may read about them on the site.

This chart, together with the online Powley Computer http://kwk.us/powley.html) and just about any load data chart such as Hodgdon's (http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle) would allow some pretty good calculation as to what powder and charge to use for any given caliber, cartridge and bullet combo. For example, if I go to the Powley Computer and input data for the 6.5x55 (button below left or just enter the data) and any bullet (button below center or enter your own data), I can see that on the right, the box labeled quickness gives me the number 91 for the 160g Hornady, an OAL of 2.85 inches and a barrel length of 21 inches. Take that 91 to the new Norma burn rate chart and find 91 in the pressure column and there is H4831 and VV N560. Next in preference would be close-by numbers such as 90.2 (RL-22) and 90.1 (AA3100), and so on. As to the load data for these powders, I might refer to that powder's table.

Then, back at the Powley you can also play with the Pressure Computer in the middle column. Ignore the powder amount. Just input the interested velocity and you'll get a pressure estimate.

Anyway, it's a lot of messing around and jumping from tab to tab but it at least gives us some info and is better than nothing...a cheap and rudimentary QL!

If you've made it this far, big thanks for your mighty patience!

Dave

T

 

[JMayo]

I was taught not to use a burn rate chart to experiment. Just because it's right next to the powder you're using doesn't mean it's a substitute.
May be wrong on that but that's what I was taught. I'll let the pros do the work for me....

 

[Kwahe]

I was taught not to use a burn rate chart to experiment. Just because it's right next to the powder you're using doesn't mean it's a substitute.
May be wrong on that but that's what I was taught. I'll let the pros do the work for me....

Perfectly reasonable response, J. But didn't pros put together the Powley? And the Norma Burn rate chart? And the reloading tables? No one is suggesting you experiment. Many new reloaders need a touch of guidance in finding appropriate powders and loads. Of course, you would look up any powder in the appropriate load tables for expert guidance as to powder dosage...and to make sure the powder is recommended for a given cartridge. Absolutely this is not a usable system for everyone. Point well taken.

 

[ebb]

Yea I thought that the burn rate chart could be used to pick another powder by going one up or one down. I didn't work out for me so who ever told you that was right. I once looked at the go to powders for 308Win several of the favorites were miles apart on the burn rate chart. I don't know what to make of it. Kwahe, Thanks for your explanation I will read it a few more times and see if I can make it work (not all that at home with a computer).

 

[JMayo]

Yeah, tight group is fast as heck, universal is middle .. still use both in my pistols.

I haven compared any rifle powders but I'd sure advise any "new comer" NOT TO use a burn rate chart to pick a powder.
Read, learn what others are using and use a chart to kinda know how that power is working in your gun.

 

[Webster]

What burn rate chart do you find to be the most honest? I use a chart only to compare powder rates when looking to replace a powder or when loading for a new cartridge. With all the charts out there it is like opinions, is this pretty much the way it is or are there some that are closer.

Longone

Never used burn rate charts. Remember that burn rates are not determined with a rifle but a small cylinder with a hole in it and the same wt. of powder for all powders. How the powder is confined while burning determines the burn rate. Burn rate changes with wt. charge, bullet wt., barrel dimensions ect. All you can say about burn rates is that all the powders were tested under the same exact conditions. No barrel, no case, no primer, no bullet. I pick powders from http://www.accurateshooter.com, reloading manuals and what TOP SHOOTERS use for my cartridge (6br & 6BRX) . Since I'm a varmint hunter I tend to look in the manuals and see which powders give the highest FPS with safe pressure. From my experience good loads can come from burn rates with quite a bit of spread.

Burn Rate ChartBurn Rate Chart - Accurate Powder
www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/.../2010/12/burn_rates.pdf
Burn rate charts can never reflect the differences between powders in the correct proportion, and can only place powders in approximate burn rate envelopes. NEVER USE THESE TO DETERMINE/CALCULATE LOADS - ALWAYS REFER TO REPUTABLE LOAD GUIDES/MANUALS.

Other articles say ballisticians never determine which powder to use based on burn rates.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

I use burn rate charts for new loads in Wildcats all the time. Just did it yesterday and today with IMR 8133, IMR 7977, and RL-33 in a 300 Norma Mag Improved with 230gr bullets. I only use the Hodgdon burn rate chart. Always seems to be the most accurate. But it really makes it hard when some of the newest powders aren't listed. Case in point being the 3 powders listed above. Everything went safely tho and I'm gathering a lot of good data on the round

Would I advise people to develop loads using a burn rate chart? NO. Definitely not unless you are a very experienced handloader with experience developing new loads for Wildcats or using powders not listed for standard cartridges in manuals. It can be very dangerous! You also need to be very adept at properly identifying the first signs of pressure when they begin to show. If you miss pressure signs and continue to increase the charge, things can get very ugly.

I always start low to be safe because I did screw it up one time many years ago when I first started doing it. Misread the chart and put 73gr of IMR 4198 in a 358 Norma Mag with a 225gr Nosler Partition. Should have seen the surprise on my face when the chronograph showed 3278 fps. Yeah that was a rough time beating the bolt open and digging the exploded case out of the chamber ...Thank God the mishap occured on a very strong Ruger M77 tang action and didn't hurt me or the rifle. I was VERY lucky that day.

On another occasion I didn't heed the pressure signs I was seeing in a 204 Ruger with a powder not listed in manuals as I was pushing max limits of the round to see how fast I could move a 39gr Sierra BK from a 26" barrel. Figured I would push just a little harder. Was up over 4100 fps when a case over pressured and melted a bullet down the bore. Bolt locked, case blew the recessed face off my 700 bolt, BDL bottom plate blew open, knocked the trigger sear out of adjustment so it didn't work anymore, and the melted bullet shrapnel flying out of the muzzle destroyed my chronograph.

So yeah. Developing new loads or pushing max pressures with powders not listed in manuals can be VERY dangerous.

 

[Kwahe]

Yikes!

Thank you all for your views on using burn rate charts for working up loads. You are all absolutely correct in your comments. I couldn't agree with you more strongly...depending solely on a burn rate chart to work up potential loads is ludicrous.

What I was suggesting is using one particular burn rate chart...the Norma chart referred to above... IN CONJUNCTION WITH the Powley online computer also referred to above AND loading tables printed by powder and bullet manufacturers referred to above. Three sources, not one.

This does not mean that powders "miles apart" on any burn rate chart can't be used for any load in any cartridge. Of course they can. Varget and IMR 4831SC are often used in a single cartridge type. It does mean that selections of powders to be used in working up loads can be conducted through judicious use of the Norma burn rate chart AND the Powley Computer to select a powder to LOOK UP on a loading chart such as Hodgdon's. That's 3 sources of information, not 1.

I apologize for misleading anyone in my original post above. The steps involved in choosing powders for loads is a complex one made simpler with the use of QuickLoads, a marvelous tool. What I had hoped to do was to outline a plan to use 3 different sources online...for free...as a substitute for QL to help select powders in working up loads. The method is nowhere near as accurate or complete with its output info as QL, but I have found it very helpful myself. And it wouldn't be anywhere near as helpful...perhaps even dangerous...to use a single source of information in making powder selections. Again, I propose using three sources together.

As for using expert advice, I consider many on this site to be experts. But I have seen more than one expert discussion of powder doses far, far in excess of any max load listed on a loading chart such as Hodgdon's or Nosler's. Such loads have been very carefully worked up by experts in their particular rifles for very particular reasons...VLD shooting. But using this expert advice by a hand-loading novice without his or her reference to a loading table would be crazy. I would repeat again: use as many sources as possible to work up loads. If that means referring to all 9 of your reloading books, fine. But it also works by using the three sources I have been discussing in this thread.

No disrespect meant to anyone above...Kwahe

 

[Webster]

What burn rate chart do you find to be the most honest? I use a chart only to compare powder rates when looking to replace a powder or when loading for a new cartridge. With all the charts out there it is like opinions, is this pretty much the way it is or are there some that are closer.

Longone

http://www.lapua.com/upload/reloading/reloadingburningratechart2011.pdf

 

[Lefty Trigger]

A burn rate chart is another useful tool you should have and use BUT it should not be your only tool. I have used one to pick some powders for new loads to try and it is really useful when used WITH good loading manuals.

 

[BoydAllen]

Looking over one chart I found some "interesting" information about a couple of powders. I have it directly from Western that Xterminator and AA2230 are the same exact powder in different packaging. Take a look at where they show up on the Norma burn rate chart. Things like that are why I go to multiple sources when looking for a safe starting load for a new powder.

 

[savagedasher]

P.O. ackley has the best discrimination why filling cases with a correct amount of powder
Too little is just as dangerous as too much

 

[Steve Ladino]

Looking over one chart I found some "interesting" information about a couple of powders. I have it directly from Western that Xterminator and AA2230 are the same exact powder in different packaging. Take a look at where they show up on the Norma burn rate chart. Things like that are why I go to multiple sources when looking for a safe starting load for a new powder.

I find this sort of deception very hard to believe or that marketing to shooters by a powder supplier has stepped this low.

 

[Brians356]

I find this sort of deception very hard to believe or that marketing to shooters by a powder supplier has stepped this low.

Deception? I don't follow. Did Western lie to Boyd? No. Are they obliged to publicize that the two powders are identical? Do Hodgdon publicize that H414 is identical to W760? No, but neither would they deny it if asked.
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[Steve Ladino]

Deception? I don't follow. Did Western lie to Boyd? No. Are they obliged to publicize that the two powders are identical? Do Hodgdon publicize that H414 is identical to W760? No, but neither would they deny it if asked.
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According to the advertisements that I've seen they appear to be the same company, granted I could be wrong but my comment pertained to my one company belief.

 

[Brians356]

According to the advertisements that I've seen they appear to be the same company, granted I could be wrong but my comment pertained to my one company belief.

Just so I understand you, do you object to a company marketing a product through two subsidiary companies under different labels?
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[Steve Ladino]

Just so I understand you, do you object to a company marketing a product through two subsidiary companies under different labels?
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You got what I'm giving so find something else to do.