wildcatter
Silver $$ Contributor
I could start this with an opinion that is debatable. But it is not debatable, it's FACT! It's about compromise, about what it takes to be the Ultimate for a certain task. So yes it will be long, but I will try and reason with WHY, for the purpose of understanding the difference in hunting needs, being totally different than target needs, and WHY one Will Not Work The Best for the other.
Well I have debated making this post for some time. Wanting those with more knowledge to address it. But that does not seem to be popular, if was they would do it. So maybe they will chime here and make it more clear, the difference and what really works, where and why!
My first frustration with this started about 3 years ago. I decided to build my ultimate Long Range Varmint rig. Boy was that a flop! I chose a great caliber for it, a 6mm Rem. Ackley Improved. That was the only thing I got right! There are plenty other cartridges that would work as well or similar. But for long range I confused Target use for hunting use. Many do and still do today!
My first mistake was not prioritizing what I was wanting to do, make quick high percentage kills on varmints! This means not just being able to hit them, but to be able to count them as Kills. In my book, if I can't kick em, how do I know I killed them. I also believe that no matter what I kill, it should be done quickly. But I chose a bullet designed for the purpose of long range accuracy. My problem was I didn't chose that bullet for it's merits of terminal performance, in fact quite the opposite!
I chose one of the finest for proven long range accuracy. This requires a bullet with enough integrity to overcome the element's it will encounter and shoot through better than anything else being it's only concerne? Yes I did not think about WHY I had never once heard about how well it performed on thin skinned targets, and only how well it punched perfect holes in paper, or smashed steel! Yep, the opposite of anything I intended to shoot with it.
To make it even worse, before I started working on loads, I had already purchased Barts 103's, Hottenstein 108's, Berger's 108's, which Bob Blame made a point of letting me know, the Elite Hunters, all I could find at the time, might suffer at the speeds I would be able to drive it. If I didn't get the accuracy I wanted to maybe try the Berger 108 Target, as the thicker jackets might be able to take the added stress I would be putting on them, that they are built on. They might take the stress of the speeds I was going to try and put on them?
Then a second, more clear message of my less than Ideal idea of the ULTIMATE LONG RANGE "VARMINT" RIGG, might be flawed. That came from Randy Robinet, although more to the point, maybe still to subtle for my comprehension! See I just wanted to know if or when his 104's would be available. As I was wanting all the top bullet choices in hand to start testing when the rifle was complete. But when I called, Randy asked me one question, after letting me know when he should have some available, "what are you wanting to shoot them in"? After I told him about the 1-8 HV 26" Krieger I had being chambered for a trued timed and bushed Savage action, on a Long range laminated BR stock, in 6mm AI, there was a short period of silence, then he spoke. I really hate to sell these to you, I don't like to lose a sale, but I don't think you'll be happy with them?
Yep, pretty much on the same line of reasoning Bob had, they both thought I was going to be trying to run these bullets harder, with more stress to stabilize them, at more RPM's than they were designed to take!! Randy explained why he thought what I was going to try and accomplish with his 104's, would not make me happy with them. I confused his comments that he thought I was going to push his bullets to many RPM with too much twist.
See I new and did he, you have to have 1-8 twist to stabilize this longer bullet, but the faster I was pushing them meant more 'Revolutions, PER SECOND", that they were spinning. This is why 4000 fps is so doable with good accuracy for lighter bullets, a 1-10 or 1-12 twist drastically cuts the revolutions per minute, and still stabilizes the bullets. But this also using a slower twist, accelerates the faster lighter bullets, with less stress, to get them spinning than a faster twisting barrel gets them turning per revolution. That added stress at the same time its putting more pressure on the jacket cutting into the rifling, it also creating more friction, this in turn is creating more heat with a faster twist barrel. Stress, Friction, Heat, all detrimental to the integrity of the jacket and compromising the core it is carrying.
Finally, I was understanding, But, I been doing this for over 5 decades, nearly daily being retired since 1991, maybe I can make it work with tactics others have not tried. So I decided now with some degree of doubt in what I was going to try and do, to just work with the fine bullets I had already acquired.
Well after a dozen trips to the range over the first month of this build, I finally come to the conclusion, even a bull head like me had to call GIVE at this point. Yes I could acquire superb accuracy, plenty good enough for 800 or more high percentage hits on varmints as small as groundhogs. But sadly that was at very sedate speeds for this cartridge. I was easily able to drive these bullets all over 3400 fps, nearing 3500 fps needed to give some terminal performance at those longer yardage hits. But every one of them when pushed over 3050 to 3100 fps started to loose their accuracy. Even trying a couple different powders, I could achieve the accuracy I needed. But when I hit that magical 3050 fps to slightly more, those groups all started opening up and for 800 yards and more, well that kinda defeats the term ULTIMATE!
So I realized why the 6BR, Dasher, XC, 6x47L, etc were so successful for long range target shooting, and favored by extreme accuracy shooters and so many records shot with those cartridge's over larger faster cartridges. Those larger cartridges can't give the accuracy needed with the heavy bullets when pushed any faster than the smaller cartridges could push them. But they need heavy bullets to compensate for some of the conditions they encounter that they cannot read. It would take flags every 35 to 50 yards to see everything, then how do you decipher that, so bullet forgiveness becomes more important along with these shooters agility's than extreme speed. Give and takes are there with everything.
But even if I had used that 6mm AI with it's ideal accuracy and able to hit varmints, mainly ground hogs beyond 600 yards at those speeds. I might as well shoot drill bits! My bullets would not help me on anything but ideal hits, with no expansion to transfer anything to the targets of opportunity I was after. So, if those were the speeds these bullets were capable of, why burn up barrels and powder for nothing I couldn't do with the much more efficient cartridges they were designed to be used in? I cut the chamber off and rechambered it to a 6BR every bit as accurate, and had I chambered it in the 6x47L I would have not only had as accurate, I would have it easier easier to obtain, with more powders, less work, and a lot less powder with better barrel life than the 6mm AI.
From this I learned, the importance of a 1-10 or 1-12 twist barrel, and how much better the mid weight bullets per caliber were for obtaining my goals "The Ultimate Long Range Varmint Rigg". Over twenty years ago the 1-10 twist 6mm and 25 caliber worked so well for this purpose. using 75 to 90 grain bullets in those calibers for a reason. That holds true today. If I want to count em, I got to kick em. Beyond 600 yards that requires bullets that will be forgiving of marginal shots, and still more forgiving of the elements, and still perform when they get there.
They have to open up and act like more of a hunting bullet, and less of a "drill bit". They also have to be capable of blistering speed to shoot through some of the conditions after giving less forgiveness than the heavier bullets in the same caliber that we cant see in field use. But most of all to do all that, they need barrels capable of allowing them to reach their potential for what they were intended to do, be very accurate, very fast, and carry enough speed to make up for those less than perfect hits.
This is the same and even more important with Big Game hunting cartridges and bullets. Today we have excellent choices for what we are intending to do. Bullets are more perfect for the results they are built for. But this means, the very best Hunting Bullets, will not win using them for target shooting, they are better than we have ever had for transferring their energy and maintaining their integrity when doing what they are intended when they get to their target. But they are less than ideal when only poking a hole or impacting the target are all that is intended. The exact opposite can be said about the finest match bullets we have available today, they just aint made to do anything, but be accurate, with no concern terminal performance for hunting.
We have never had bullets so specialized in delivering the most precise accuracy, at long range in every caliber available. But they are made with no concern over transferring more energy once they get there! We have some wanna bee bullets that do a little of both. A berger hunting bullet will never do what a Swift or Nosler Bonded bullet will do in such a huge impact range on some of the toughest dangerous game. Same for Copper bullets, they will never be as ideal in such a velocity range as the Bonded. But the Bonded will never assure the penetration at some of the speeds the solid coppers do on the biggest most dangerous animals. EVERYTHING, will have give and take.
I hope this helps some form making the mistake I made after over 50 years shooting in every aspect of using firearms. from target shooting, varminting, hunting, short range, long range, Dangerous Game, etc etc. Every one of those disciplines have special needs to obtain the best results. They all require some different priorities, with less importance on other things. But for sure, Not one of those shooting disciplines will be ideal for everything. The joy of having different rifles is being able to own something that is more precise for the intended purpose they are being used to obtain!
My best 600 and 1000 yard gun, will never be my best long range target rifle. My best small game gun will never be my best Big Game gun. My best walk around varmint rifle will never be my best LR varmint rifle. My best Short Range best rest gun will never be my best LR bench rest gun, and vice versa. But one thing is for sure I'm going to do best to own the best for each thing I use them for. Most of all, as everything gets more exacting from cartridges, components and optics for every discipline, I'm going to do my best to understand what to give up, to have what does best in every discipline.
Well I have debated making this post for some time. Wanting those with more knowledge to address it. But that does not seem to be popular, if was they would do it. So maybe they will chime here and make it more clear, the difference and what really works, where and why!
My first frustration with this started about 3 years ago. I decided to build my ultimate Long Range Varmint rig. Boy was that a flop! I chose a great caliber for it, a 6mm Rem. Ackley Improved. That was the only thing I got right! There are plenty other cartridges that would work as well or similar. But for long range I confused Target use for hunting use. Many do and still do today!
My first mistake was not prioritizing what I was wanting to do, make quick high percentage kills on varmints! This means not just being able to hit them, but to be able to count them as Kills. In my book, if I can't kick em, how do I know I killed them. I also believe that no matter what I kill, it should be done quickly. But I chose a bullet designed for the purpose of long range accuracy. My problem was I didn't chose that bullet for it's merits of terminal performance, in fact quite the opposite!
I chose one of the finest for proven long range accuracy. This requires a bullet with enough integrity to overcome the element's it will encounter and shoot through better than anything else being it's only concerne? Yes I did not think about WHY I had never once heard about how well it performed on thin skinned targets, and only how well it punched perfect holes in paper, or smashed steel! Yep, the opposite of anything I intended to shoot with it.
To make it even worse, before I started working on loads, I had already purchased Barts 103's, Hottenstein 108's, Berger's 108's, which Bob Blame made a point of letting me know, the Elite Hunters, all I could find at the time, might suffer at the speeds I would be able to drive it. If I didn't get the accuracy I wanted to maybe try the Berger 108 Target, as the thicker jackets might be able to take the added stress I would be putting on them, that they are built on. They might take the stress of the speeds I was going to try and put on them?
Then a second, more clear message of my less than Ideal idea of the ULTIMATE LONG RANGE "VARMINT" RIGG, might be flawed. That came from Randy Robinet, although more to the point, maybe still to subtle for my comprehension! See I just wanted to know if or when his 104's would be available. As I was wanting all the top bullet choices in hand to start testing when the rifle was complete. But when I called, Randy asked me one question, after letting me know when he should have some available, "what are you wanting to shoot them in"? After I told him about the 1-8 HV 26" Krieger I had being chambered for a trued timed and bushed Savage action, on a Long range laminated BR stock, in 6mm AI, there was a short period of silence, then he spoke. I really hate to sell these to you, I don't like to lose a sale, but I don't think you'll be happy with them?
Yep, pretty much on the same line of reasoning Bob had, they both thought I was going to be trying to run these bullets harder, with more stress to stabilize them, at more RPM's than they were designed to take!! Randy explained why he thought what I was going to try and accomplish with his 104's, would not make me happy with them. I confused his comments that he thought I was going to push his bullets to many RPM with too much twist.
See I new and did he, you have to have 1-8 twist to stabilize this longer bullet, but the faster I was pushing them meant more 'Revolutions, PER SECOND", that they were spinning. This is why 4000 fps is so doable with good accuracy for lighter bullets, a 1-10 or 1-12 twist drastically cuts the revolutions per minute, and still stabilizes the bullets. But this also using a slower twist, accelerates the faster lighter bullets, with less stress, to get them spinning than a faster twisting barrel gets them turning per revolution. That added stress at the same time its putting more pressure on the jacket cutting into the rifling, it also creating more friction, this in turn is creating more heat with a faster twist barrel. Stress, Friction, Heat, all detrimental to the integrity of the jacket and compromising the core it is carrying.
Finally, I was understanding, But, I been doing this for over 5 decades, nearly daily being retired since 1991, maybe I can make it work with tactics others have not tried. So I decided now with some degree of doubt in what I was going to try and do, to just work with the fine bullets I had already acquired.
Well after a dozen trips to the range over the first month of this build, I finally come to the conclusion, even a bull head like me had to call GIVE at this point. Yes I could acquire superb accuracy, plenty good enough for 800 or more high percentage hits on varmints as small as groundhogs. But sadly that was at very sedate speeds for this cartridge. I was easily able to drive these bullets all over 3400 fps, nearing 3500 fps needed to give some terminal performance at those longer yardage hits. But every one of them when pushed over 3050 to 3100 fps started to loose their accuracy. Even trying a couple different powders, I could achieve the accuracy I needed. But when I hit that magical 3050 fps to slightly more, those groups all started opening up and for 800 yards and more, well that kinda defeats the term ULTIMATE!
So I realized why the 6BR, Dasher, XC, 6x47L, etc were so successful for long range target shooting, and favored by extreme accuracy shooters and so many records shot with those cartridge's over larger faster cartridges. Those larger cartridges can't give the accuracy needed with the heavy bullets when pushed any faster than the smaller cartridges could push them. But they need heavy bullets to compensate for some of the conditions they encounter that they cannot read. It would take flags every 35 to 50 yards to see everything, then how do you decipher that, so bullet forgiveness becomes more important along with these shooters agility's than extreme speed. Give and takes are there with everything.
But even if I had used that 6mm AI with it's ideal accuracy and able to hit varmints, mainly ground hogs beyond 600 yards at those speeds. I might as well shoot drill bits! My bullets would not help me on anything but ideal hits, with no expansion to transfer anything to the targets of opportunity I was after. So, if those were the speeds these bullets were capable of, why burn up barrels and powder for nothing I couldn't do with the much more efficient cartridges they were designed to be used in? I cut the chamber off and rechambered it to a 6BR every bit as accurate, and had I chambered it in the 6x47L I would have not only had as accurate, I would have it easier easier to obtain, with more powders, less work, and a lot less powder with better barrel life than the 6mm AI.
From this I learned, the importance of a 1-10 or 1-12 twist barrel, and how much better the mid weight bullets per caliber were for obtaining my goals "The Ultimate Long Range Varmint Rigg". Over twenty years ago the 1-10 twist 6mm and 25 caliber worked so well for this purpose. using 75 to 90 grain bullets in those calibers for a reason. That holds true today. If I want to count em, I got to kick em. Beyond 600 yards that requires bullets that will be forgiving of marginal shots, and still more forgiving of the elements, and still perform when they get there.
They have to open up and act like more of a hunting bullet, and less of a "drill bit". They also have to be capable of blistering speed to shoot through some of the conditions after giving less forgiveness than the heavier bullets in the same caliber that we cant see in field use. But most of all to do all that, they need barrels capable of allowing them to reach their potential for what they were intended to do, be very accurate, very fast, and carry enough speed to make up for those less than perfect hits.
This is the same and even more important with Big Game hunting cartridges and bullets. Today we have excellent choices for what we are intending to do. Bullets are more perfect for the results they are built for. But this means, the very best Hunting Bullets, will not win using them for target shooting, they are better than we have ever had for transferring their energy and maintaining their integrity when doing what they are intended when they get to their target. But they are less than ideal when only poking a hole or impacting the target are all that is intended. The exact opposite can be said about the finest match bullets we have available today, they just aint made to do anything, but be accurate, with no concern terminal performance for hunting.
We have never had bullets so specialized in delivering the most precise accuracy, at long range in every caliber available. But they are made with no concern over transferring more energy once they get there! We have some wanna bee bullets that do a little of both. A berger hunting bullet will never do what a Swift or Nosler Bonded bullet will do in such a huge impact range on some of the toughest dangerous game. Same for Copper bullets, they will never be as ideal in such a velocity range as the Bonded. But the Bonded will never assure the penetration at some of the speeds the solid coppers do on the biggest most dangerous animals. EVERYTHING, will have give and take.
I hope this helps some form making the mistake I made after over 50 years shooting in every aspect of using firearms. from target shooting, varminting, hunting, short range, long range, Dangerous Game, etc etc. Every one of those disciplines have special needs to obtain the best results. They all require some different priorities, with less importance on other things. But for sure, Not one of those shooting disciplines will be ideal for everything. The joy of having different rifles is being able to own something that is more precise for the intended purpose they are being used to obtain!
My best 600 and 1000 yard gun, will never be my best long range target rifle. My best small game gun will never be my best Big Game gun. My best walk around varmint rifle will never be my best LR varmint rifle. My best Short Range best rest gun will never be my best LR bench rest gun, and vice versa. But one thing is for sure I'm going to do best to own the best for each thing I use them for. Most of all, as everything gets more exacting from cartridges, components and optics for every discipline, I'm going to do my best to understand what to give up, to have what does best in every discipline.
Get off your computer and get in the field in the elements with the varying terrain and see the challenge. 
