Bullet making bullet balance point. Big deal or not?

[Tim Singleton]

Question for bullet makers
how do you go about finding the correct balance point of the lead ?
Example
6mm j4 jackets weigh X and a lead core weighs 44.7 grain together they weigh 67.5
Now the question with an 8.5 ogive die we are going to point them up.
How far do we want the lead up in the nose of the bullet
The more we squeeze it and move the ogive closer to the base of the bullet the lead will be squeezed up into the nose
What is a good balance point for the lead up into the nose?

Pic on the left working from bottom up bullet one has a base to ogive measurements of .276 bullet two has a base to ogive dimension of .254" three has a b-o of .236 and last bullet b-o of .221
Now which one of these and all the other die positions one can choose will put the proper amount of lead up into the point to create a balanced and stable bullet

 

[savagedasher]

I dont make bullets but I can say If their for you try others .
If you going to make them for sale . Dies aren't cheap and It only takes a few bad ones and the party is done .
Lots of luck Larry

 

[Tim Singleton]

I dont make bullets but I can say If their for you try others .
If you going to make them for sale . Dies aren't cheap and It only takes a few bad ones and the party is done .
Lots of luck Larry

Not sure I'm following your response. When setting up a point up die. You have to decide at what point you have sized the bullet enough. That's the 60,000 question. The more you swage it down and close up the point the more you push the ogive down toward the base and force lead up into the nose. So where in this is the optimal balance point?

 

[BartsBullets]

Question for bullet makers
how do you go about finding the correct balance point of the lead ?
Example
6mm j4 jackets weigh X and a lead core weighs 44.7 grain together they weigh 67.5
Now the question with an 8.5 ogive die we are going to point them up.
How far do we want the lead up in the nose of the bullet
The more we squeeze it and move the ogive closer to the base of the bullet the lead will be squeezed up into the nose
What is a good balance point for the lead up into the nose?

Pic on the left working from bottom up bullet one has a base to ogive measurements of .276 bullet two has a base to ogive dimension of .254" three has a b-o of .236 and last bullet b-o of .221
Now which one of these and all the other die positions one can choose will put the proper amount of lead up into the point to create a balanced and stable bullet

Tim,

I'm going to be a little hard on ya here. Quit asking questions and start making bullets. You're trying to pole vault over mouse turds. Stop the bullet before it stove pipes and go shoot. It's not the bearing surface with that makes the bullet. It's how you seat the core that makes the bullet!

790 jacket I'd say max 67 gr bullet

820-825 jacket a 68 gr bullet will work everytime.

Bart

 

[spclark]

Tim I think what you're asking is as much about the art of bullet-making and design as the science of ballistics. It's what makes classics of someone's inspiration and efforts to find what works best in as many situations as possible.

I'm sure folks like Wally Berger, Brian Litz, Bob Cauterrucio... (to name but a very few) would be good sources for answers to this.

 

[savagedasher]

Not sure I'm following your response. When setting up a point up die. You have to decide at what point you have sized the bullet enough. That's the 60,000 question. The more you swage it down and close up the point the more you push the ogive down toward the base and force lead up into the nose. So where in this is the optimal balance point?

My bad sorry.
Pointing bullets is something that I have found you can change the shape of the bullet depending on where the lead is in relation ship to the copper or point opeaning .
Larry

 

[Tim Singleton]

Tim,

I'm going to be a little hard on ya here. Quit asking questions and start making bullets. You're trying to pole vault over mouse turds. Stop the bullet before it stove pipes and go shoot. It's not the bearing surface with that makes the bullet. It's how you seat the core that makes the bullet!

790 jacket I'd say max 67 gr bullet

820-825 jacket a 68 gr bullet will work everytime.

Bart

Lay it on. I can take it. Glad to have your time, always all ears
I can mark this off my list as a non issue.
I was just looking for a place to start when going to a 790 and lighter core how to determine when it was pointed enough or to much.

 

[BartsBullets]

Lay it on. I can take it. Glad to have your time, always all ears
I can mark this off my list as a non issue.
I was just looking for a place to start when going to a 790 and lighter core how to determine when it was pointed enough or to much.

When it starts going up the ejection pin hole it's too far buddy! It's just that simple.

 

[BartsBullets]

Lay it on. I can take it. Glad to have your time, always all ears
I can mark this off my list as a non issue.
I was just looking for a place to start when going to a 790 and lighter core how to determine when it was pointed enough or to much.

Tim,

What you will find over time is that the speed of your stroke, lube, different lots of jackets will flow different making longer and shorter bullets.

 

[Tim Singleton]

I dont make bullets but I can say If their for you try others .
If you going to make them for sale . Dies aren't cheap and It only takes a few bad ones and the party is done .
Lots of luck Larry

Im definitely not making them to sell

 

[Tim Singleton]

I made up 6 test sets of 30 bullets in each set I shot them yesterday
825s and 790s
I made them in each size jacket with two different core seat punches
I used two different core seat pressure points with the two different punches
After they rested a day I pointed them up with the die adjusted to just eject reliably. Moving the lead further forward
Then with the die adjusted down to close the point up to match the pin size

Spending the day testing all the above. The only thing that made a difference was the punch size and core seating pressure

 

[Tim Singleton]

There are many varying opinions on core seating. A lot of people say apply pressure until they are almost to the failure point then back off a little.
That a small amount of lead bleed by is desirable

Others say select a punch large enough to allow no to very minimal bleed by and use just enough pressure for the jacket to stick in the die.
This is how I was instructed by George as well

After the testing yesterday I proved to myself Georges method shot much better
The bullets with high core seat pressure shot groups in the .3s and 4s
With both punches lead bleed by or next to no bleed by the hard seated cores shot poorly
The bullets with a lighter core seat pressure just enough to stick in the die shot well
The group of these with the punch sized to allow no bleed by shot the best of the day
Almost as good as the sample lot of George sent with my equipment

 

[Tim Singleton]

would other like to share thoughts on core seating?

 

[DOGCAPPER]

JUST SHOOT. Find the ans. with YOUR rifle.

 

[PeterE]

The bullets with a lighter core seat pressure just enough to stick in the die shot well
The group of these with the punch sized to allow no bleed by shot the best of the day
Almost as good as the sample lot of George sent with my equipment

What kind of jacket stretch were you getting on the light vs. Heavy core seat preassure?

 

[liseo]

Tim,

I'm going to be a little hard on ya here. Quit asking questions and start making bullets. You're trying to pole vault over mouse turds. Stop the bullet before it stove pipes and go shoot. It's not the bearing surface with that makes the bullet. It's how you seat the core that makes the bullet!

790 jacket I'd say max 67 gr bullet

820-825 jacket a 68 gr bullet will work everytime.

Bart

Barts, if I may ask..

What effect on accuracy potential if you use a heavier core and the 790"jacket ends with say 75/80 grains? Or if the leads fill the ogive to the point almost exit from the tip? And to another extreme, if the core weight is too light, and the 790" jacket end with say 50 grains bullets?

Also, if lead bleed, it may cause unbalance and cause accuracy problems?

Yes, I could do the test my self, but as a newbie in the bullet making, I may end up with wrong conclusions. So, some experts tips are appreciated. I live outside USA(this explains some language errors too), so dont have anyone to help me. I believe be the only one in my state dealing with bullet making, for personal use.




Thanks

 

[JRS]

Barts, if I may ask..

What effect on accuracy potential if you use a heavier core and the 790"jacket ends with say 75/80 grains? Or if the leads fill the ogive to the point almost exit from the tip? And to another extreme, if the core weight is too light, and the 790" jacket end with say 50 grains bullets?

Also, if lead bleed, it may cause unbalance and cause accuracy problems?

Yes, I could do the test my self, but as a newbie in the bullet making, I may end up with wrong conclusions. So, some experts tips are appreciated. I live outside USA(this explains some language errors too), so dont have anyone to help me. I believe be the only one in my state dealing with bullet making, for personal use.




Thanks

Purchase a copy of "The Accurate Rifle". I can share with you an archived discussion on bullet making, via PM. Equipment has changed, somewhat, but the principal remains the same.

 

[Tim Singleton]

I've made some head way with my bullet making. Been working at it pretty hard and I'm getting closer. When I got the core to punch matched up better it sure dotted up

 

[geo.ulrich]

Tim, Keep it simple remember bullet shrinks in length during core seat as a f.b. or stretches .007-.008 as a sr bt then when pointing up bullet will increase in length if it goes shorter than the longest length you messed up as long as they are lengthening your good as for balance points unless you go drastic it doesn't matter I like 2/3 by volume . all this balance stuff you read on internet is not of much help its a little more involved center of pressure must be in front of center of gravity if not bullets go sideways....

 

[tightneck]

Tim, if you heed Bart's point with reference to core seating being the END ALL when it comes to bullet making, you'll be ahead of the game. Once you've got core seating mastered, pointing is tough to screw up. I've got the same 8.5 die from George as you. I've made bullets that vary drastically from base to ogive, and all will shoot if core seating is where it needs to be.