• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.

Bullet 'attitude'

When I shoot at 1000yds for example, my barrel is obviously pointing a couple of degrees upwards, and what I want to know is, does the bullet once fired stay at the same angle relative to the centre line of the bore all the way to the target, or as the bullet progresses downrange, does the bullets nose angle tip towards the ground due to gravity or other forces.
Thanks, Les
 
From another thread..... I think Kevin is talking about your question...

KevinThomas said:
Brian,

Everything has its limits, and RPM is no different. Most of the concern about "overstabilizing" bullets is really unfounded, at least where accuracy issues are concerned. Benchresters tend to worry about it most, but I hear the same questions about whether an "overstabilized" bullet will properly nose over when it begins its descending branch, again, this coming mostly
from LR shooters. I had this conversation with the late Bob McCoy some years back, and he stated that essentially, no small arms projectiles really nose over, and that all remain with their axis remaining pretty much on the same line as the line of bore at firing. Artillery is really where the question becomes important, as they have a vested interest in making sure than nose-fused projectiles impact nose (fuse) first. Interesting topic, though!
 
Empirically speaking, the bullet cannot be "tilting" very much at 1000yds, or you sould see an oblate hole in the paper and not a round hole.
 
Geordiesniper,

No, they don't, as you can see by markm87's reposting of that reply from another thread. The guy I mentioned there, Bob McCoy, was an aeroballistician at the Army's Ballistics Research Lab (BRL) at Aberdeen Proving Ground. I had asked him exactly the same question, and his answer was no, small arms bullets don't nose over like heavy artillery projectiles do. The axis of that bullet stays pretty well on the same line as the line of bore at the time of firing. We're talking about a relatively minor angle here, even for 1,000 yard shots, so no, it isn't really noticeable as any sort of an out of round hole on target.
 
KevinThomas said:
Geordiesniper,

No, they don't, as you can see by markm87's reposting of that reply from another thread. The guy I mentioned there, Bob McCoy, was an aeroballistician at the Army's Ballistics Research Lab (BRL) at Aberdeen Proving Ground. I had asked him exactly the same question, and his answer was no, small arms bullets don't nose over like heavy artillery projectiles do. The axis of that bullet stays pretty well on the same line as the line of bore at the time of firing. We're talking about a relatively minor angle here, even for 1,000 yard shots, so no, it isn't really noticeable as any sort of an out of round hole on target.

Thanks Kevin and Markm87 for the info. I can now sleep peacefully now I know the answer.
Best wishes, Les
 
KevinThomas said:
...I hear the same questions about whether an "overstabilized" bullet will properly nose over when it begins its descending branch, again, this coming mostly from LR shooters. I had this conversation with the late Bob McCoy some years back, and he stated that essentially, no small arms projectiles really nose over, and that all remain with their axis remaining pretty much on the same line as the line of bore at firing...
I read this passage as well and it sparked a renewed interest in a question someone asked when they saw people shooting AK's into the air in celebration. Will those bullets fall back to earth with lethality or have no more energy as if dropped from a tall building? I didn't think so but could not back up that answer with any concrete science/physics/reason? This started me on a quest to understand what the hell was going on and let me tell you I've had to read certain explanations a million times until I understood the gobbledeegook that was being flung around. At the risk of being called a wanna be know it all, I'll try and explain what I've come to understand about it in the non-scientific terms I'm used to:
What I've learned is these elements must be present - a rotating mass of reasonable stability (the spinning bullet), and air acting on the surface of said rotating mass. At this time, I'd like to break away into the topic of aviation and cover something called gyroscopic precession. In a prop driven airplane (for example, a P-51...my favourite 8)) the propeller out front is spinning in a beautifully balanced manner as I cruise along straight and level. If I want to nose down and only push the stick forward, my tail will mysteriously kick out to the left and make me yaw to the right because of the phenomena called precession. You can see it demonstrated here:
http://footballphysics.utk.edu/balls/gyroscope.htm
That's why if Mr. Pilot wants to dive he must push the stick forward and step on the left rudder. Now back to the spinning bullet flying through the air. The relative airflow over the bullets surface causes more drag on the right side of the bullet than on the left. This is caused because the right side of the bullet is spinning into the air as the bullet falls through the air and the left side of the bullet is spinning with the relative air movement. (Like-you will swim through more water going upstream than you will downstream) This unequal amount of drag acts as a torque force that wants to yaw the bullet to the right but because of precession it ends up translating into a nose dip. If for arguments sake we say the momentum of the nose dip now changes the attitude of the falling bullet so much so that it starts falling through the air with the relative airflow moving across the top of the bullet, the drag forces will want to torque the bullet with opposite yaw and the nose will rise. Because these two tendancies in precession will keep each other in check, the bullet maintains it's symmetry axis in a nice co-ordinated parabola that leaves round holes in the 1000 yard target (or unfortunate somebody within range of those AK's :o). It is still possible to have bullets hit something in a nose up attitude if it was launched at a steep enough angle and it didn't have enough elevation for precession to fully nose it down before hitting the ground but I believe that angle would have to be close to perfectly straight up. Incidentally, Retired General Hatcher has proven that a rifle bullet fired straight up will land base first because the relative airflow over the bullets surface is equal on all sides so there is no precession forces at play to cause it to deviate it's angular momentum. I hope this helps someone wade through the admittedly frustrating science behind it but it's basically what happens to a nice tight football spiral or a javelin.
 
swt5,

As usual, Hatcher had the answers. Amazes me how few people have actually bothered to read Hatcher's Notebook, which answers about 98% of the run of the mill questions that shooters can come up with.

I was at Yuma Proving Grounds some time back doing some test firing over their Doppler radar system. There were a bunch of us, mostly members of AFTE and various crime labs from the south west. One of the teams was from LAPD, and they were there to test both AK-47s and AR-15s, fire straight vertical. The Doppler system tracked those bullets all the way to apogee, and all the way back to the ground giving velocity at every phase of the flight. Predictably, 32.16 fps/ps until the bullet was balanced by atomshperic resistance, at which point its velocity remained pretty much constant. Guns fired into the air can be and are dangerous, so long as there's a bit of an angle to them, and they come down with some degree of forward momentum. Those fired straight up, as you said, are no different that being dropped from a very high building.

Always amused me that every year, police chiefs make complete fools out of themselves by going on TV and warning that,"those bullets come back down just as fast as they go up." Huh?
 
What is the terminal velocity of say a 105 A-max (.500 BC) coming point down? I think it would be lethal, Im guessing about 300 FPS. Hell a .45 with a heavy bullet is only going 700 FPS
 
NHgunNut said:
What is the terminal velocity of say a 105 A-max (.500 BC) coming point down? I think it would be lethal, Im guessing about 300 FPS. Hell a .45 with a heavy bullet is only going 700 FPS

As Kevin says, terminal velocity depends on the angle of firing, but yes that bullet would have more than enough remaining energy to inflict severe injury or kill. Military cartridge designers work on having a minimum terminal energy value at the desired maximum range of 70 ft/lb which will inflict 'severe injury' on 'unprotected' human beings, ie in the open without body armour. That's just under 550 fps with a 105gn bullet.

You don't need that amount of energy to kill someone if he or she is unlucky. A celebrated case here in England led to a manslaughter conviction many years ago involving an unwise high-angle shot using a .22LR rifle and that missed its intended target as follows:

"The Barr Beacon incident of some years ago saw a .22 fired at an object in a tree, the bullet subsequently clear a significant rise in the ground that hid a family picnicking 700yd away, then fall steeply to penetrate the eye socket of the recumbent father and kill him despite only having an estimated 17 ft/lb of energy at this range."

I too often wondered about whether anybody, or perhaps more realistically how many people, are injured in middle east / asian countries through indiscriminate firing of AKs in the air for any old excuse. A senior BBC reporter mentioned in passing a few months ago that the hospitals of whatever country he was reporting from regularly saw citizens seriously injured, occasionally killed, by stray bullets "fired in celebrations".

Laurie,
York, England

PS Kevin, have now received and devoured "The Gun". Very good - thank you for the recommendation.
 
So when I test fire max loads with my 6BR at an 80 degree angle from the bottom of my basement steps, approximately how far from my house does that bullet land?
 
As Laurie said, luck (or extremely bad luck) is involved in many of these sorts of cases. Some years back I was involved in a homicide case in LA when a guy was arrested for firing a 38 Special into the air to intimidate some neighbors. The guy was using some relatively unusual ammo; 130 grain FMJ military ball. At about the same time, an apparently unrelated call came in regarding a woman killed by gunshot, nearly 3/4 of a mile away. The fatal bullet recovered at autopsy was a 130 grain FMJ, and someone made the connection between the two "sepatrate" incidents. The question then came up as to whether a 38 Special could have caused the death, with several of the detectives involved doubting that they could be related. We ran the ballistics of it, and yes, under certian circumstances, it was possible and still had sufficient energy to be dangerous. They did a ballistic comparison of the bullet, it matched the gun taken from the first incident, and the guy went away for a good while as a result. As for the woman, completely uinintended, in the wrong place, at the wrong time.

Given the tribal nature of the Arab world, I've often wondered just how many of those wounded or killed in "random shots from the sky" incidents weren't actually old family or sectarian/tribal scores being settled when an opportunity presented itself.
 
NHgunNut,

I think Randy's answered your question here; if the bullet is nose down, it would have had to have been fired from altitude, straight down. If it is a falling bullet fired from earth, it would (or should) remain nose up. If for some reason it began turning and tumbling, it's not going to resume a nose on attitude as it returns. In that case, no, I seriously doubt that it'd be a threat. Still wouldn't want to get smacked by it, but it wuldn't be any different than being dropped from a very tall building. And as Randy pointed out, BC would be completely irrelevant at this point.
 
"Shoot into the ground and you will know where it lands."

Providing it doesn't ricochet of course! I was participating in a civilian club shoot on a military range many, many years ago and an elderly member had an equally elderly .303 Enfield Number 4 rifle whose trigger he had 'improved'. If he didn't push the bolt handle down closed really hard, the striker / cocking piece had a habit of dropping onto the half-cock notch and sticking there. (A dangerous anachronism even when the No.4 was designed in the 1930s - according to Enfield guru Ian Skennerton it was only retained in the design because regimental officers and NCOs insisted on it for some reason!) Then as soon as my old mate touched the bolt knob, the striker dropped and the rifle would fire.

This happened just before we finished for the day while shooting from a raised firing point maybe 15 ft above the surrounding ground. Up gets our friend into the kneeling position, points the muzzle down at the ground ahead of the point and starts fiddling with the bolt before the R.O. could get over to him. BANG! - followed by a really long drawn out ricochet whine, so the bullet must have travelled some considerable distance into or even beyond the range Danger Area. I even saw the bullet splash as it hit the wet turf maybe 15 or 20 yards ahead of the FP. I must admit I was surprised it didn't just dig into what was very soft moist turf - maybe there was a stone just under the grass. The individual denied point blank that there had been a ricochet and claimed he'd acted safely. Nobody else heard the ricochet either this being back before electronic earmuffs became common. Anyway we told him not to bring the rifle back until it was fixed which he did. Nowadays we'd have sent him packing and been very leery of letting him back onto the range, but he's long since popped his clogs as they say in Yorkshire!
 
geordiesniper said:
When I shoot at 1000yds for example, my barrel is obviously pointing a couple of degrees upwards, ..........

I was just thinking, a "couple of degrees" is 120 MOA. thats over 1,260" drop compensation. You are probably at more like 35 MOA drop compensation, which is really close to just half a degree of angle! kinda shocking to think about!
 
Correct you are NHgunNut!!! 60 minuets equals 1 degree. In shooter speak, that means 60 MOA equals 1 degree. So a 20 MOA base plus the 10 to 15 MOA you add will get you out to about 1000 yards.

So, your avarage scope has about a maximum of 15 MOA of elevation or about a quarter of a degree of elevation.

So, your avarage target bullet being between 1.2 and 1.4 inch long will be exiting the muzzel at a half degree (for a 1000 yard shoot), will only be titlid up off its axis about .0108". In other words the holes made by bullets at 1000 yards are going to be .0054" out of round or look round to the naked eye.

Slight correction: the bullet will be tilted up off the line of sight axis .0108"
 
KevinThomas said:
...test firing over their Doppler radar system. There were...members of AFTE and various crime labs from the south west. One of the teams was from LAPD
KevinThomas said:
...I was involved in a homicide case in LA...
You have a very cool job Kevin!
rewinder said:
Since rotation keeps the point of a bullet forward, wouldn't it fall back to the ground tumbling if coming straight down. Thus making B.C. irrelevant. Randy
My understanding is rotation on it's own is not what keeps the point of a bullet forward, it's the uneven amounts of drag exerted on the left and right side of the bullet which only occurs when the trajectory strays off of an absolutely perpendicular trajectory (relative to the force of gravity).
 
MythBusters Episode 50: Bullets Fired Up

http://mythbustersresults.com/episode50

Jamie fired a clip of 9mm bullets up into the air. 39 seconds later they heard the bullets hit the ground.
Adam: "I'm searching across the desert for a pencil-sized hole"
The first bullet that Adam found went only 2" into the ground and appeared to have hit the ground on it's side. The bullet had traveled 330ft horizontally. Jamie found another bullet hole almost identical to the first.
Jamie then fired the .30-06 rounds. Big problem: after 40 rounds fired into the air, they weren't able to hear any bullets land. The .30-06 rounds travel over twice as high, so they were simply traveling too far for them to find.


From Comments:
"Look at the German movie http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZDS_2ooqpU (thanks Dirk).
You can see the trajectory the fired bullet travels (followed by radar) at 2:49 minutes.
Using some goniometric calculations it can be seen that the bullet was almost fired straight up (angle around 83 degrees) with a speed of 1500 meters per second and falls downward with a final angle of around 63 degrees with a speed of 350 meters per second. That is much slower but still lethal. The distance the bullet travels upward is around 1000 meters. On the same picture the horizontal distance can be measured as around 800 meters. That’s a lot.
......
Lowering the angle of the shot to around 60 degrees will result in a much larger distance travelled, a few kilometers could even be possible."



"Department of Emergency Medicine, King/Drew-UCLA Medical Center 90059
People often celebrate holidays by firing guns into the air without realizing that this can cause serious injury or death. The present study identified 118 patients treated since 1985 who were hit with spent bullets. Most (77%) were hit in the head. The mortality rate was 32%, which is significantly higher than for all gunshot wound victims in general seen at the same medical center. Laws have been enacted to help prevent people shooting into the sky, but more education and enforcement are required to prevent these serious and preventable injuries. "
 
NHgunNut said:
geordiesniper said:
When I shoot at 1000yds for example, my barrel is obviously pointing a couple of degrees upwards, ..........

I was just thinking, a "couple of degrees" is 120 MOA. thats over 1,260" drop compensation. You are probably at more like 35 MOA drop compensation, which is really close to just half a degree of angle! kinda shocking to think about!

Quite right! My comment about 'a couple of degrees' was just a figure of speech as that was not the main point of my post.
 

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Forum statistics

Threads
167,606
Messages
2,236,477
Members
80,616
Latest member
EddieV
Back
Top