Bulk density and energy content for Varget

[SteveOak]

I'm looking for bulk density (g/l) and energy content (J/g) for Varget.

Thanks!

 

[Trevor60]

Courtesy of Laurie UK

As several people have pointed out, propellant choice has a major effect too. Fine powder though H. VarGet is, it has a very high specific energy for a single-base type, 4,050 KJ / Kg (Kilo Joules per Kilogram), H4895 even more at 4,060. That's right up with many hot 'high-energy' types with infused nitroglycerine - Viht N540 is 4,100 and N550 4,050 and higher than many - the Bofors manufactured Alliant Re models all rated at a nominal 3,990. Many single base jobs are cooler burning - N140 and N150 under 3,800. IMR powders are mostly 3,880 and 4007ssc is 'hot' by this manufacturer's standards at 3,935.

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/th...t-in-competition.3866698/page-2#post-36532281

all the best
Trevor

 

[SteveOak]

Thanks Trevor60.

That covers energy content for Varget although I do wonder a bit. I am comparing N140, N150, N540 and N550 to Varget so I had looked up the bulk density (g/l) and energy content (J/g) for those.

bulk density (g/l) N140 = 910, N150 = 910, N540 = 940 and N550 = 940
energy content (J/g) N140 = 3,700, N150 = 3,720, N540 = 4,000 and N550 = 3,900

Those numbers are from the Vihta Vouri website. https://www.vihtavuori.com/powders/n100-powders/ https://www.vihtavuori.com/powders/n500-powders/

Laurie UK seems to wander a bit between energy content and heat of combustion which I understand to be two different things.

Anyone have bulk density for Varget?

 

[Stan Taylor]

I have a dumb ass question why do you want to know about the energy of varget.

 

[SteveOak]

I have a Varget load and an N150 load for my 6BR. Knowing the bulk density of Varget will help me estimate the case volume.

For now I am trying to estimate how much volume I have to work with if I use a Berger 115gr Target VLD. Because of the ogive and the length I had to seat it quite deep into the case.

If you know the weight of the load and the bulk density you can calculate the volume it consumes. By calculating the volume of several different loads and measuring the protrusion of the bullet into the case I can come to an approximation of the volume I have to work with.

I would also like to predict if I will be able to work with some heavier, 120 to 125gr bullets.

To measure the protrusion of the bullet into the case I can seat a bullet so that it just touches the lands. Then turn the Wilson micrometer seating die upside down, drop a bullet into it, put the base on and measure through the hole in the base to the base of the bullet using the back end of a caliper as a depth gauge. If I do this for each bullet I know how a particular bullet protrudes into the case and how much it reduces the volume.

 

[rammac]

Just buy a copy of QuickLoad, it gives you all the information you are looking for including the usable volume available after seating the bullet and how much of that usable volume will be filled with your powder charge.

Varget
4050 kj/kg
1.600 g/cubic cm (1.6 kg/l)

Give me the caliber (6 BR Rem or 6BR Norma), the bullets (brand, style, and weight) you want to use, the seating depths you plan on using (along with case trim to length), and I can provide you with the usable volume (in grains of water) of the case (based average case volume, unless you can provide me with specific total case volume in grains of water) and I can provide you with the percentage of the usable volume that will be filled with your specific powder charge.

 

[ireload2]

When about 10 or more years ago I emailed Hodgdon asking for the specific gravity of Varget. One of the male Hodgdon family responded by refusing to divulge that information.
For me to get that data I would have had to buy a pound of Varget and a graduated cylinder. Instead I chose to avoid buying Hodgdon powders when possible.
I don"t know what the specific gravity of Varget is but I am pretty sure it is NOT the 1.6 stated above.

 

[Alliant Reloading]

SteveOak,
I would use 0.89g/cc for the "bulk density" of Varget.
The 1.6g/cc number is what we refer to as "absolute density", or the theoretical density of the base materials.
I might still contact Hodgdon, since they distribute that product.
If you are interested, I calculated that 0.89 number from Lee's VMD values, which are essentially density numbers in different units.
Shoot well,
Paul

 

[ireload2]

The MSDS of 2208 (Varget) shows an approximate specific gravity of more than 1. How much greater than one is not specified. However with a few exception most powders are in the neighborhood of 1. A few are less like Trailboss. None that I have ever heard of approach 1.6.

SteveOak,
I would use 0.89g/cc for the "bulk density" of Varget.
The 1.6g/cc number is what we refer to as "absolute density", or the theoretical density of the base materials.
I might still contact Hodgdon, since they distribute that product.
If you are interested, I calculated that 0.89 number from Lee's VMD values, which are essentially density numbers in different units.
Shoot well,
Paul

 

[SteveOak]

Just buy a copy of QuickLoad, it gives you all the information you are looking for including the usable volume available after seating the bullet and how much of that usable volume will be filled with your powder charge.

Varget
4050 kj/kg
1.600 g/cubic cm (1.6 kg/l)

Give me the caliber (6 BR Rem or 6BR Norma), the bullets (brand, style, and weight) you want to use, the seating depths you plan on using (along with case trim to length), and I can provide you with the usable volume (in grains of water) of the case (based average case volume, unless you can provide me with specific total case volume in grains of water) and I can provide you with the percentage of the usable volume that will be filled with your specific powder charge.

Thanks rammac!

The case is a Lapua 6mmBRNorma, trim length is 1.550". The bullet is a Berger 115gr, 6mm, Target VLD.

How do you want me to specify seating depth? I can seat a bullet in a case that will just touch the lands and measure OAL. Would that work?

I am looking to use VV N150 powder. Will QL give me a projected velocity? I am looking for 2,600 FPS or so. If N150 won't get me there I would try N550.

I have a bunch of N160 and N560 but I think they might be too slow. Maybe they will work with the super heavy 120 to 125gr bullets.

My Sierra 107gr MK (1.231") load has an OAL of 2.3355".

With a Berger 115gr Target VDL (1.354") load has an OAL of 2.4075". It looks as though the beginning of the BT is at the neck/shoulder junction and the base of the bullet is at the shoulder/body junction.

The water volume of the case is 38.7 grains.

 

[SteveOak]

SteveOak,
I would use 0.89g/cc for the "bulk density" of Varget.
The 1.6g/cc number is what we refer to as "absolute density", or the theoretical density of the base materials.
I might still contact Hodgdon, since they distribute that product.
If you are interested, I calculated that 0.89 number from Lee's VMD values, which are essentially density numbers in different units.
Shoot well,
Paul

Thanks Paul. That seems to be in line with the other powders.

 

[rammac]

Thanks rammac!

The case is a Lapua 6mmBRNorma, trim length is 1.550". The bullet is a Berger 115gr, 6mm, Target VLD.

How do you want me to specify seating depth? I can seat a bullet in a case that will just touch the lands and measure OAL. Would that work?

I am looking to use VV N150 powder. Will QL give me a projected velocity? I am looking for 2,600 FPS or so. If N150 won't get me there I would try N550.

I have a bunch of N160 and N560 but I think they might be too slow. Maybe they will work with the super heavy 120 to 125gr bullets.

My Sierra 107gr MK (1.231") load has an OAL of 2.3355".

With a Berger 115gr Target VDL (1.354") load has an OAL of 2.4075". It looks as though the beginning of the BT is at the neck/shoulder junction and the base of the bullet is at the shoulder/body junction.

The water volume of the case is 38.7 grains.

For the seating depth just tell me what the bullet's length is and then what the cartridge overall length is once the bullet is seated to where you want it.

Yes, QuickLoad will predict muzzle velocity but I need the barrel length. The muzzle velocity wont always be the most accurate because there are a lot of variables between what the software assumes and what the real world is. Your throat may be tight which could increase pressure and velocity above what the software predicts. The powder lot can have different characteristics that will effect pressure and velocity too. Most often I come up with an initial estimate and then adjust powder characteristics or case volume to match up with the real world chronograph data. I might have to experiment with changing parameters a couple of times until I end up being able to predict velocities to within 30 fps or so.

 

[SteveOak]

The length for the Berger 115gr Target VLD is 1.354" and is loaded to an OAL of 2.4075".

That would make the length of the bullet protruding from the case 0.8575" and the length inside the case as 0.4964".

The case is a Lapua 6mmBRNorma, trim length is 1.550".

The barrel is 23".

I'm looking for a MV velocity of 2,650 to 2,700 fps with VV N150.

For comparison with the same case and DTAC 115gr bullets and 29.2gr of N150 I get 2,708 fps.

 

[louielouie]

Just buy a copy of QuickLoad, it gives you all the information you are looking for including the usable volume available after seating the bullet and how much of that usable volume will be filled with your powder charge.

Varget
4050 kj/kg
1.600 g/cubic cm (1.6 kg/l)

...

It has been mentioned here before - what got me started on measuring - is that bulk density like the burn rate as reported by QuickLoad is a 'guideline' for the batch that was tested. We know to adjust the 'Ba' value to match the one load but I noticed that velocity still did not track charge weight/velocity for a ladder test - a different slope.
Comparing the actual bulk density of a powder to the QL value certainly was cause to adjust that also - think of H4831 vs H4831SC - even if the burn rate is the same, the volume in the case as loaded affects burn rate as cautioned in the 6.5x284 article on this site.

If you go that analystic (anal-istic?) make sure you know the volume of your cartridge and dribble the powder slowly and/or from a long drop tube and be suspicious if there is more than 3% difference in those values: I'm still trying to figure out what QL predicted 2860 FPS using RL23 with 140's in my 6.5x284 and the Magnetospeed reported over 3100!

 

[SteveOak]

Rather than looking for the magic recipe for maximum velocity, my goal is rather modest. The problem I am trying to solve is to determine if I can get enough N150 in the case to get the MV I am looking for. Fortunately I am not looking for maximum velocity.

I think I have figured out how to do it. I took a case and put some powder in it, up to where I think the base of the Berger 115 would be if it is seated just off the lands.

Then I took a .224 bullet and measured its length and dropped it into the case and measured how much protruded. I added powder (N150) to the case and tapped the case on the table to compact the powder. I repeated this until I felt that the powder was pretty well settled and the bullet showed that it was inserted into the case the same amount as the Berger would be.

Then I dumped out the powder and weighed it, 31.6gr.

I am presently loading 29.2gr of N150 under a DTAC 115 and getting 2,708 fps MV so I should be fine.

The problem may become more complex in the future when I try heavier bullets. I am looking at 120 to 125gr bullets at 2,600 to 2,650 fps MV.

Thanks to all that contributed.

 

[rammac]

My QuickLoad estimates the following based on;

23" barrel
6mm BR Norma
38.7gr of water capacity (total case volume)
TTL 1.550"
Berger Target VLD 115gr 6mm bullet 1.354" long
Cartridge Overall Length 2.4075"

With the following powder charges

VV N150 30.2gr
2605 fps
56020 psi max (SAAMI max is 58740 psi)
103.9% of usable volume filled (compressed powder charge)

VV N550 30.8gr
2603 fps
49842 psi max
97.9% of usable volume filled (not compressed)

 

[Laurie]

You may find N150 a bit fast burning with the 115. Some years back John Carmichael who then owned and ran a boutique ammunition loading company as well as being a competition rifle builder in the UK briefly adopted the 6BR for F-Open using the 115gn DTAC.

He achieved a most impressive MV and pretty good precision with N550 which he found ideally suited to this bullet weight in a very long freebore chamber. The rifle, one of his own builds on an RPA Quadlock action, 32-inch Lothar Walther barrel and in one of his own company HPS-TR Ltd 'System Gemini' stocks performed very well and he achieved some good long-range match results, but it was only just competitive against 6.5-284s. The 7WSM was fast becoming the norm in GB F-Class at the time and no 6BR load was going to compete against it on our wind-reading-challenging ranges at 1,000 yards, so it only lasted one season.

 

[SteveOak]

rammac, Thanks!

I am heading out to the range this morning. I'll let you know what I get for MV.

Laurie,

Thanks for the info. I have N550 in my pocket as a back up. A fellow shooter here came up with a nice recipe for a DTAC and N550. If I can't get the MV I am looking for N550 would be the next powder I try.

 

[SteveOak]

I went to the range today with a load of 29.2gr of VV N150 and the Berger 115gr Target VLD.

Ave MV 2,689, H 2,698, L 2,678
ES 20
SD 9.3

This is for 5 rounds, Lapua 6mmBR Norma cases and CCI 450 primers, 23" Kreiger 8 twist barrel, HBN coated bullets and HBN treated barrel.

 

[rammac]

Reasonable numbers for an initial estimate. Using your true velocity for this load I should be able to estimate future powder charge changes that are within 20 or 30 fps of the true muzzle velocity (while using all the same components). Typically at this point I would adjust the software and then estimate the powder charge required to get close to some accuracy parameter (I like to use bullet barrel time and OCW accuracy nodes). After I fine tune the load and am satisfied with it I then use the software to develop a record of the all of the estimated data for that cartridge in that rifle.