IIRC, you're the 7saum to a lot farther than 1000 yards guy?
Building an ELR Rifle
- Thread starter jackieschmidt
- Start date
I’m not the only one.
What I was after with the 7saum callout was other ELR shooters that believe that ELR doesn't end at Mach 1, it's only getting started.
My favorite 7mm anecdotes are the second URSA match was won by a shooter with a 7WSM. I think it was 8 hits out of 10 on a 37" target at 2050 yards. The score wasn't topped for 6-7 years. No light gun / heavy gun, it's run anything.
The other one was about a year after that, 4 of us were shooting the same range. A 300 Norma, a 300 WM, a 7mm/338 Lapua, and a 284. Ridge to ridge shooting in lunch time winds on a 20"h x 30"w target. All except 1 went 3/10 twice. I was shooting the 7/338 and went 2/10, 4/10. Everybody in that group had or would win URSA matches except Mr. 284. I'm sure the only reason for that was he didn't ever shoot one. His 10 shot velocity spreads were 13 fps! Twice, back to back.
The point is massive case capacity, BCs and velocities are great for bench racing on the internet but won't show up in scores until a bunch of other things are figured out and even then, there are often larger factors at play.
My favorite 7mm anecdotes are the second URSA match was won by a shooter with a 7WSM. I think it was 8 hits out of 10 on a 37" target at 2050 yards. The score wasn't topped for 6-7 years. No light gun / heavy gun, it's run anything.
The other one was about a year after that, 4 of us were shooting the same range. A 300 Norma, a 300 WM, a 7mm/338 Lapua, and a 284. Ridge to ridge shooting in lunch time winds on a 20"h x 30"w target. All except 1 went 3/10 twice. I was shooting the 7/338 and went 2/10, 4/10. Everybody in that group had or would win URSA matches except Mr. 284. I'm sure the only reason for that was he didn't ever shoot one. His 10 shot velocity spreads were 13 fps! Twice, back to back.
The point is massive case capacity, BCs and velocities are great for bench racing on the internet but won't show up in scores until a bunch of other things are figured out and even then, there are often larger factors at play.
Bottom Fodder
Silver $$ Contributor
Just curious, what size target would you consider a legitimate 1 mile hit?
The standard IPSC is a good challenge at a mile.
We use 1.5 - 2 moa for our practice range. Comps usually are larger.
A legitimate par score depends on backstop, lighting, terrain, mirage and wind to name a few. Much over 50% hits with typical conditions and the target size needs to be reduced or moved back.
There are 4 elements in the vertical error budget.
1 - Precision
2 - Velocity spread
3 - BC spread
4 - Uncertainty in the aiming point
The first problem new through intermediate ELR shooters have is #4. Nothing but practice is going to fix that. Training and mentors speed it up, but only rounds down range will grind it in. Advanced shooters understand which solver inputs they can't know precisely enough and develop coping strategies.
The other 3 are presented for a high performance 7 out to 2000 yards. From 100 to 1000 yards, the problem is dominated by the precision. By 2000 yards, the error budget has flipped upside down. It should also be clear that the new problems at a mile and beyond make 1 moa groups unlikely even in ideal conditions. Most often, with ELR, we're more interested in scores rather than group sizes, early hits count more and sighters are not used. Good judgement on the solver inputs only comes with time. The things that really keeps ELR honest about case capacities are the required round counts, shooting pace and the fact that the highest scoring targets are shot last. 10+ shot strings are the norm and 15+ isn't uncommon.
Items #2 and #3 are affected by TOF. The graph below illustrates the effect of higher velocities and better BCs for some 7s.
The larger issue though, is the size of the velocity and BC spreads. Here, beginner is 1.5moa, 60 fps, 6% BC spread. Intermediate is 1.0, 30, 3%. Advanced is 0.5, 15, 1.5%.
The lowest BC and velocity cartridge will out perform the highest performance one if the smaller cartridge is loaded to a higher standard. Learning to load to that higher standard is a slog that's better done with cheaper components. The OP is well ahead of the curve on that, but there are still some things that worked great at 1K but start letting you down at a mile lessons to learn. I'm primarily referring to bullet and twist selection.
So do both, right? Yea, that's been tried. The problem is every 100 fps costs 1/4 to 1/3 the barrel life and more nonsense shows up late in those long strings. Too much pressure and the BC spread opens up with jacketed bullets. BC spread isn't just the bullet. The throat condition contributes significantly. Barrels have a prime, middle age, and expiration date. The longer the range, the earlier the expiration date. No, match guns shouldn't be used for practice and absolutely not for training.
The bright spot in this is 2/3 the shots will have vertical about half that presented. The problem is #4 because while the group size on a given target might be small, there is still a lot of uncertainty about where the center of the next group will be.
We use 1.5 - 2 moa for our practice range. Comps usually are larger.
A legitimate par score depends on backstop, lighting, terrain, mirage and wind to name a few. Much over 50% hits with typical conditions and the target size needs to be reduced or moved back.
There are 4 elements in the vertical error budget.
1 - Precision
2 - Velocity spread
3 - BC spread
4 - Uncertainty in the aiming point
The first problem new through intermediate ELR shooters have is #4. Nothing but practice is going to fix that. Training and mentors speed it up, but only rounds down range will grind it in. Advanced shooters understand which solver inputs they can't know precisely enough and develop coping strategies.
The other 3 are presented for a high performance 7 out to 2000 yards. From 100 to 1000 yards, the problem is dominated by the precision. By 2000 yards, the error budget has flipped upside down. It should also be clear that the new problems at a mile and beyond make 1 moa groups unlikely even in ideal conditions. Most often, with ELR, we're more interested in scores rather than group sizes, early hits count more and sighters are not used. Good judgement on the solver inputs only comes with time. The things that really keeps ELR honest about case capacities are the required round counts, shooting pace and the fact that the highest scoring targets are shot last. 10+ shot strings are the norm and 15+ isn't uncommon.
Items #2 and #3 are affected by TOF. The graph below illustrates the effect of higher velocities and better BCs for some 7s.
The larger issue though, is the size of the velocity and BC spreads. Here, beginner is 1.5moa, 60 fps, 6% BC spread. Intermediate is 1.0, 30, 3%. Advanced is 0.5, 15, 1.5%.
The lowest BC and velocity cartridge will out perform the highest performance one if the smaller cartridge is loaded to a higher standard. Learning to load to that higher standard is a slog that's better done with cheaper components. The OP is well ahead of the curve on that, but there are still some things that worked great at 1K but start letting you down at a mile lessons to learn. I'm primarily referring to bullet and twist selection.
So do both, right? Yea, that's been tried. The problem is every 100 fps costs 1/4 to 1/3 the barrel life and more nonsense shows up late in those long strings. Too much pressure and the BC spread opens up with jacketed bullets. BC spread isn't just the bullet. The throat condition contributes significantly. Barrels have a prime, middle age, and expiration date. The longer the range, the earlier the expiration date. No, match guns shouldn't be used for practice and absolutely not for training.
The bright spot in this is 2/3 the shots will have vertical about half that presented. The problem is #4 because while the group size on a given target might be small, there is still a lot of uncertainty about where the center of the next group will be.
Depends on the range, conditions and backstop. It's getting legitimate in a hurry by about 1500 yards.
Bottom Fodder
Silver $$ Contributor
Thanks for your simple answer. I would say it is, for me I would say “ the broad side of a barn” would be lol
That’s a respectable size in my opinion.
My mile target is a full ipsc.
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