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Bto. Beating dead horse

DngBat7

Silver $$ Contributor
I know I’m beating a very dead decaying horse. Measuring bto. I only want to know ONE thing. I have heard the bearing length arguments, the weight arguments. My one and only question is, I have had Berger’s that varied in bto length by up to .004. Not common, but they did. So I know .004 is not a lot by some standards, but it does in theory increase the pressure of the cartridge. I would think? Am I right or wrong? Does that not in theory create flyers?
 
Having +/- .004" of bullet shank in the neck is not going to change pressure or velocity to an extent that can be accurately measured by typical chronographs or that is statistically significant. Think about sorting bullets BTO in the context of a seating depth test. Over what total range of seating depth do you typically test with a given load? How much pressure/velocity change do you observe during that testing? Is seating depth testing in and of itself likely to cause flyers?

In my hands, I can generally move a jumped bullet as much as .010" in either direction without marked changes in average velocity. IMO - sorting bullets BTO is more about uniformity of the amount of bullet shank seated in the case neck for the purpose of consistent friction and bullet release. It may also have a beneficial effect on the external ballistics of the bullet.
 
I move bullets in .003" when doing seating tests. And have noticed changes in accuracy by doing so. Not to the point of fliers, but definitely inlarged/smaller groups.
 
I know I’m beating a very dead decaying horse. Measuring bto. I only want to know ONE thing. I have heard the bearing length arguments, the weight arguments. My one and only question is, I have had Berger’s that varied in bto length by up to .004. Not common, but they did. So I know .004 is not a lot by some standards, but it does in theory increase the pressure of the cartridge. I would think? Am I right or wrong? Does that not in theory create flyers?

Ned Ludd is giving sagely advice.

If you pick up on what he’s saying. Let’s say your bullets vary .004. Seat a bullet that is the correct bto and one that’s +.004 with your bullet seater. Then measure the loaded cartridge with your base to ogive checker. Both will be seated to the same spot/.001. Because your seater stem is hitting both bullets at the same place diameter wise on the nose of the bullet. The Extra length on the body is pushed into the neck.

This is way different then a .003 seating depth change.

Bart
 
Oh come on..... Post it!
You just have to add, "In my hands" I'm so good one shot groups count.
Ok but I dont want to hear any guff about not being 5 shot groups.20190315_113701.jpg funny how shortly after my response earlier my friend/ gunsmith called saying how he was amazed at how .005 in seating depth made such a change.
He shot this target with his 6bra this afternoon. image000000.jpg
This was 5 shots at 100
 
Ned Ludd is giving sagely advice.

If you pick up on what he’s saying. Let’s say your bullets vary .004. Seat a bullet that is the correct bto and one that’s +.004 with your bullet seater. Then measure the loaded cartridge with your base to ogive checker. Both will be seated to the same spot/.001. Because your seater stem is hitting both bullets at the same place diameter wise on the nose of the bullet. The Extra length on the body is pushed into the neck.

This is way different then a .003 seating depth change.

Bart

Ok. So I do get that. Its the .003 of extra bullet length is inside the case now. Which means increased pressure in that one cartridge, no? May be not enough to make a difference, but internal capacity shrinks on that one round, technically?
 
Ok. So I do get that. Its the .003 of extra bullet length is inside the case now. Which means increased pressure in that one cartridge, no? May be not enough to make a difference, but internal capacity shrinks on that one round, technically?
There will be a very small increase in pressure, yes. This is one of the good uses of quickload. You can play around with numbers like that and get a *relative* idea of how much any given factor matters. It’s illuminating to be sure.
 
Ok. So I do get that. Its the .003 of extra bullet length is inside the case now. Which means increased pressure in that one cartridge, no? May be not enough to make a difference, but internal capacity shrinks on that one round, technically?

You won’t find it with a chronograph. So I doubt you’ll see it on paper. Lets look at another scenario. You buy a new box of the same bullets and they measure several thousandths bto different then your last batch. Most shooters will immediately adjust their seater to make up the difference and in so doing take their gun out of tune!

Bc’z is correct that a.003 change in seating depth can make a big difference. But these are two different subjects.

Bart
 
You won’t find it with a chronograph. So I doubt you’ll see it on paper. Lets look at another scenario. You buy a new box of the same bullets and they measure several thousandths bto different then your last batch. Most shooters will immediately adjust their seater to make up the difference and in so doing take their gun out of tune!

Bc’z is correct that a.003 change in seating depth can make a big difference. But these are two different subjects.

Bart
After re reading Nedd's post I realized this.
On another note....
I got 1000 of your 6mm 68gr fb.
I measured about a dozen and quit as all the bullets I measured bbto exactly and 68gr exactly!
Nice work!
 
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Ok. So I do get that. Its the .003 of extra bullet length is inside the case now. Which means increased pressure in that one cartridge, no? May be not enough to make a difference, but internal capacity shrinks on that one round, technically?

I also carry out seating depth testing in .003" increments, usually from ~.003" to .027" or .030" off the lands. I have rarely found it necessary to seat bullets into the lands. During such a seating depth test with jumped bullets, it is not at all uncommon to see anything from mediocre to completely unacceptable grouping across a good part of the test window, then all of a sudden you hit the "sweet spot" and the next couple or three seating depth test increments show one ragged hole. So even a very small change in seating depth can make a huge difference in precision. Although I guess you could refer to bullet holes out of the group during seating depth testing to be "fliers", in my mind the term flier means something very different than the typical shrinking and opening up of group spread observed during a seating depth test.

As Bart noted, what I was referring to earlier was the difference in the amount of bullet shank in the neck in a typical seating depth test, which will differ by whatever test increment has been chosen, even with bullets that have been sorted BTO. Although I was trying to convey the notion that the magnitude of velocity (pressure) change over a total seating depth test range of .020" to .030" with jumped bullets is usually so small that a typical chronograph can't detect it, the concept is just as valid (if not more so) for a single .003" seating depth increment.

The key point here is that you can't detect a significant change in pressure or velocity for a .003" difference in the amount of bullet shank in a case neck without specialized equipment, and maybe not even with it. If you can't even reliably measure a difference in velocity/pressure, then it's unlikely that any beneficial effect gained by sorting bullets BTO is caused by generating more uniform velocity/pressure. Therefore, it's likely due to something else. As I mentioned previously, I would speculate that it has more to do with friction/bullet release and/or improved external ballistics. However, there certainly could be other explanations. For example, I have heard a few different theories as to exactly what is happening when we tune in a load using seating depth, but I'm not convinced that even that process is fully and completely understood. Sometimes we do things in the reloading process without necessarily being able to fully grasp or explain why they work; they just do, so we do them. In those cases we just have to accept that we may not fully understand what is happening. In the the case of the OP's question however, I think it is unlikely that the exceedingly small change in the consistency of pressure gained by sorting of bullets by BTO is why people find it to be of benefit as a sorting technique.
 
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