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Bryan Litz paper on spin drift - Contradiction ??

I have read Bryan Litz's paper "Gyroscopic (spin) Drift and Coriolis Effect" and I am quite puzzled about a passage from that paper.

The passage at issue is this one:

Consider a bullet fired at some angle on a long range trajectory. The bullet starts
out with its spin axis aligned with its velocity vector. As the trajectory progresses, gravity
accelerates the bullet down, introducing a component of velocity toward the ground. The
bullet reacts like a spiraling football on a long pass, by 'weather-vaning' it's nose to
follow the velocity vector, which is a nose-down torque. The price you pay for torqueing
the axis of rotation is that the nose points slightly to the right as it 'traces' to follow the
velocity vector. This slight nose right flight results in a lateral drift known as ‘gyroscopic
drift’.

The problem is that a nose-down torque for a right hand spin will produce a nose left torque,
(basic gyroscopic precession) not a nose right torque. But since Bryan has forgotten more about
ballistics than I ever knew, I have to assume his assertion of weather-vaning is correct. Thus I need
to find an explanation for the apparent contradiction.

Here is what I conclude.

I believe that for the sake of brevity, Bryan cuts directly to the net of all effects, that being a nose right
torque. But what is left out (again I assume for brevity's sake) is that the nose down "weather-vaning"
creates lift that causes an overturning moment. It is the overturning moment that generates a nose right
force *AND* between the nose left force from weather-vaining and the nose right force from the overturning
moment the right hand moment prevails.

I have hopes (probably futile) that Bryan might see this post and comment, but I'm truly interested
in a concrete explanation as to how weather-vaning produces a right hand torque when
gyroscopic precession clearly indicates the opposite.
 
I have read Bryan Litz's paper "Gyroscopic (spin) Drift and Coriolis Effect" and I am quite puzzled about a passage from that paper.

The passage at issue is this one:

Consider a bullet fired at some angle on a long range trajectory. The bullet starts
out with its spin axis aligned with its velocity vector. As the trajectory progresses, gravity
accelerates the bullet down, introducing a component of velocity toward the ground. The
bullet reacts like a spiraling football on a long pass, by 'weather-vaning' it's nose to
follow the velocity vector, which is a nose-down torque. The price you pay for torqueing
the axis of rotation is that the nose points slightly to the right as it 'traces' to follow the
velocity vector. This slight nose right flight results in a lateral drift known as ‘gyroscopic
drift’.

The problem is that a nose-down torque for a right hand spin will produce a nose left torque,
(basic gyroscopic precession) not a nose right torque. But since Bryan has forgotten more about
ballistics than I ever knew, I have to assume his assertion of weather-vaning is correct. Thus I need
to find an explanation for the apparent contradiction.

Here is what I conclude.

I believe that for the sake of brevity, Bryan cuts directly to the net of all effects, that being a nose right
torque. But what is left out (again I assume for brevity's sake) is that the nose down "weather-vaning"
creates lift that causes an overturning moment. It is the overturning moment that generates a nose right
force *AND* between the nose left force from weather-vaining and the nose right force from the overturning
moment the right hand moment prevails.

I have hopes (probably futile) that Bryan might see this post and comment, but I'm truly interested
in a concrete explanation as to how weather-vaning produces a right hand torque when
gyroscopic precession clearly indicates the opposite.
I have read his paper also. Too hi tech for me. But I do know....He who reads the conditions best wins. All thats required.
 
I have read his paper also. Too hi tech for me. But I do know....He who reads the conditions best wins. All thats required.
at least for under 1000yds
2500yds?
more data to follow ....in the future?
range finding binos bluetooth to your phone and kestrel...down range wind lab radars ,wind meters and around the corner guns...good greif!?
im out and watching it
 
My post wasn't about successfully compensating for conditions. It was about resolving the apparent contradiction in Bryan's paper.
i'll bet a dollar he has a scientific explanation but it is way out of my league.
he used to be here alot, not sure how much now but i bet he could be contacted through Berger.
 
i dont know about nose down...but I can easily see high pressure on the left hand side of the bullet with right hand twist bbl. Bernoullis principle. Running bass boats for 20 years at speeds close to 80 mph..you could aim the boat at a point a mile and a half away...and before you get there...you will have to make a left turn as the hull is not much in the water...pretty much a prop. The right hand rotation slips the boat to the right, not through pressure but merely sliding the boat to the right by the prop gripping the water. I dont think it hard to see a high pressure /low pressure side of the bullet. I would be interested in hearing the nose down explanation
 
i dont know about nose down...but I can easily see high pressure on the left hand side of the bullet with right hand twist bbl. Bernoullis principle. Running bass boats for 20 years at speeds close to 80 mph..you could aim the boat at a point a mile and a half away...and before you get there...you will have to make a left turn as the hull is not much in the water...pretty much a prop. The right hand rotation slips the boat to the right, not through pressure but merely sliding the boat to the right by the prop gripping the water. I dont think it hard to see a high pressure /low pressure side of the bullet. I would be interested in hearing the nose down explanation
Gyroscopic precession is a bit different than prop-walk. On the boat, when only the 6"-8" pad is in the water and half the prop is out, you effectively have a force from the prop spinning pushing the stern to the right. Even a cleaver prop does it.

Precession happens when a force is applied to a spinning object and the maximum reaction occurs ~ 90° later in the direction of rotation. So, if you take a spinning bullet (clockwise rotation like a right twist barrel) apply a force to the bullet to go nose down, it will move along the plane of precession 90° (degrees of difference in force direction, aka vector, not 90° of movement) to the left.
 
The direction the bullet nose tips is indeed to the right from gyroscopic precession. The same effect is what causes aerodynamic jump consistent with the same “weathervaning” direction.

Some people do believe it’s due to different air pressure / velocity on either side of the bullet from spinning. While this effect is there, the resulting force from it is negligible compared to the gyroscopic forces.
 
Since nobody answered the question, the reason the yaw of repose is to the right with a right hand spin is that the bullet is always pointing tangent to the downward curving trajectory - it can never quite catch up. This creates an an upwards overturning moment, that when combined with spin results in a rightward yaw (for a right hand spin).

That's what Bryan meant by "The price you pay for torquing the axis of rotation is that the nose points slightly to the right as it 'traces' to follow the velocity vector." So yeah, you're right. He's a little unclear when he says "nose down torque". Obviously there must be forces that make the bullet follow in line with the trajectory, but the torque causing the yaw of repose is the one tending to overturn the bullet upwards.

Spin drift is caused by gravity, essentially.
 
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Yes yes yes. THE PARALALYSIS of ANALYSIS. To hi tech for this old man, I will take it for what is worth, if he says so I will accept it. Talked to him several weeks ago at Spearpoint, seems like good people.

Have a great Easter weekend.!
 
I suspect the Ops dilemma is with consideration to the direction of rotation. If it spins clockwise the angular shift will be opposite to if it spins counter clockwise. That's why direction of barrel twist is relevant to this discussion.

Test it for yourself. Take the front tire off a bicycle and use an air nozzle to get the wheel spinning while you hold the axle. Now watch which way it turns when you change the angle of the axle. Gyroscopic forces will turn 90 degrees to the direction of force. But opposite if its spinning the other way.
 

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