Brass question

[savageshooter86]

that brass is bad. Send it to me and I will take car of it
I had some 308 brass before that had 10 loads on it and it still was good to go. So no way should you get new brass if you have only fired yours now twice(unless you blew the pockets out on 1 reload)

 

[chkunz]

Erik, do you have data to back up your claims for annealing brass?

 

[Erik Cortina]

Erik, do you have data to back up your claims for annealing brass?

Yes. Do you have data showing that annealing is a waste of time?

 

[chkunz]

Erik, I have no data on the effects of annealing cases on accuracy and have never seen any. I have see references where folks have to anneal when they are forming cases for non standard cartridges from some other type of brass. But you indicate that it is a positive factor for accuracy and even say that you have data that shows that. That sounds like an important finding. Please share your data with the rest of us.

 

[dkhunt14]

I think it depends on cartridge and how far you want to shoot. A Dasher doesn't need annealed as much as others. The thinner necks and less working of the brass is probably the reason. Now the 300 WSM with a lot more neck and thicker brass holding the bullet shows definite improvement at 1000 yards by annealing. I documented this with 5 different 10 shot groups and 5 different 10 shot groups with annealing in a 17 lb. gun. I also did the same thing with a heavy gun. Both guns were great shooters and the annealing shot way better groups and higher scores. Now these were both 300 WSM and shot at 1000 yards in benchrest competition. The targets with annealing were more centered and the groups averaged 1 1/2 inches smaller. The knots of 7 to 8 shots in the groups were way tighter. Many times they were in the 2 to 3 inch range. If you are shooting longrange I think you need to anneal. I anneal everytime just because it keeps things consistent. Matt

 

[Joe R]

T-REX said: Erik, I have no data on the effects of annealing cases on accuracy and have never seen any. I have see references where folks have to anneal when they are forming cases for non standard cartridges from some other type of brass. But you indicate that it is a positive factor for accuracy and even say that you have data that shows that. That sounds like an important finding. Please share your data with the rest of us.

T-REX, I know Erik is quite capable of defending himself, but I see your approach as being a bit antagonistic. Let's all be nice and be kind to one another.

Here's my reasoning for annealing every time, soft brass has less spring back and consequently is more likely to form to the desired tolerances of your dies. It is also likely to have more uniform neck tension.

Here's an article titled "The Science of Annealing Brass" it is worthwhile reading. In the meantime I'm off to the range.

Kindest regards,

Joe

 

[Erik Cortina]

Erik, I have no data on the effects of annealing cases on accuracy and have never seen any. I have see references where folks have to anneal when they are forming cases for non standard cartridges from some other type of brass. But you indicate that it is a positive factor for accuracy and even say that you have data that shows that. That sounds like an important finding. Please share your data with the rest of us.

T-REX, I know you are new here, so first of all, welcome to the forum.

The topic of annealing has been discussed many times on this forum. dkhunt14's results are typical with others (me included) that have done testing with annealed brass.
After I did my initial testing with annealing, I started annealing every time and was told by many I was wasting my time because the common practice was to anneal every 5 firings or so. Now, many have followed suit and anneal every time because we can feel the difference in neck tension after one firing without annealing.

I do not need to convince you of anything, but if you really want to know if annealing makes a difference, read the article Joe R. suggested and also do a search on this forum. Make sure you make a fresh pot of coffee, because you will be reading for a while.

 

[chkunz]

Thanks Erik and Joe, I will take a look at the reference.

 

[Changeling]

Two loadings is like better than new to me. Kind of like throwing out your shoes as soon as they start to get comfortable.

I think searcher nailed it with one of the best analogies that could possibly parallel the situation!

 

[chkunz]

I think it depends on cartridge and how far you want to shoot. A Dasher doesn't need annealed as much as others. The thinner necks and less working of the brass is probably the reason. Now the 300 WSM with a lot more neck and thicker brass holding the bullet shows definite improvement at 1000 yards by annealing. I documented this with 5 different 10 shot groups and 5 different 10 shot groups with annealing in a 17 lb. gun. I also did the same thing with a heavy gun. Both guns were great shooters and the annealing shot way better groups and higher scores. Now these were both 300 WSM and shot at 1000 yards in benchrest competition. The targets with annealing were more centered and the groups averaged 1 1/2 inches smaller. The knots of 7 to 8 shots in the groups were way tighter. Many times they were in the 2 to 3 inch range. If you are shooting longrange I think you need to anneal. I anneal everytime just because it keeps things consistent. Matt

Matt, 5 different 10 shot groups with annealing and 5 different 10 shot groups without annealing and significant improvement in group size that is good data, thanks for sharing. Clyde

 

[Hillhunter]

Where else in this world would you get this information , this makes the learning a lot easier , thanks all

 

[LCazador]

i was happy enough when i got Preachers reply , thank you , now that i see dkhununt14 ,s (thank you also ) answer i am confused, do i take the chance with the twice fired?

Tony Boyer does not shoot brass in competition until it has at least two firings on it.

You will be fine.

Most competitive shooters fireform twice before competition. +1 on Erik's post!

 

[chkunz]

Joe R, I took a look at the reference you attached to your message, "The Science of Annealing Brass". Thanks for the reference. As it turns out I had an understanding of this subject from earlier studies but this was a good refresher and an excellent paper for the person who has not been introduced to the subject and is considering annealing brass. It was easy to understand and covers the subject of what brass annealing is very well. And as the article points out there are significant risks if this process is not properly followed, this consideration is no small deal. I also fully understand that brass life can be extended significantly with this process but there is a cost trade off as well as the time involved. I am not willing to make the cost and time trade just to extend brass life but I am willing if there is a significant benefit on the target and that gets back to my original question, what is it worth on the target. You gave me some personal positive experience and that is of value but I am looking to see if someone has done a more rigorous test with test results that are statically significant. Many times we see test results that are reported to show an improvement when they could just be within random statically variability. Mother Nature is a bitch are requires significant effort to show even a 95 percent probability that A is better than B. Can you or anyone else on the forum point me to such data? Take care, Clyde.

 

[Dos XX]

The best way to see if annealing increases accuracy is to test it for yourself. There are several brass annealing services around that you could send some brass to for annealing to test.

 

[chkunz]

The best way to see if annealing increases accuracy is to test it for yourself. There are several brass annealing services around that you could send some brass to for annealing to test.

That is very good advice, I was just being lazy and thought that if someone else has done this I could take advantage of their work. I never had to consider this with the M14, shooting the National Match Course, reload three times and throw the brass away. But now I am learning mid range and long range and things are different. Take care, Clyde

 

[Joe R]

Clyde,
Everyone wants the certainty that data provides, but there isn't any in long range shooting. If brass consistency is making you queasy wait until you try to visualize the wind over that a thousand yards, you'll be immobilized. I am also a beginner, so much so that I have to look up to see the bottom of the shoes of guys like Erik, or others at my range.

The best advice I can offer you is to take it one step at time, and use common sense and logic. Which brings back to my original statement:

Here's my reasoning for annealing every time, soft brass has less spring back and consequently is more likely to form to the desired tolerances of your dies. It is also likely to have more uniform neck tension.

If it makes sense do it. If it doesn't, don't.

Kindest regards,

Joe