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Brass Failure

XTR

F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
Just something to watch for. Shooting long range we tend to push our loads a little hard. This is an "almost a problem" picture.

Case head separation, but not quite.

Winchester Brass, Fired 5X I've noticed that more of this batch is showing some visible wear in the same area after this firing. The scribe line on this one grabbed my attention but if you look closely (why I took the shot with my Nikon) you can see the stretch on both sides of the line. That is what is noticeable in some of the other brass in this batch. Time for this batch to go to recycle.

1_09_04_12_3_08_41.jpg


Pushing 175s over 44+ Varget.

Oh yea, one more reason to always wear shooting glasses.
 
A RCBS Case Mastering Gauge I find works wonders when checking for thinning and stretching in the base web area and looking for incipient case head separation. You might be over resizing your cases if you only got 5x reloads from them.

IMGP6525.jpg
 
Yea, I'll cut a couple open and post pictures. I'm definitely going to inspect this lot, it's all loaded. If I notice stretch I'll pull them down, and in any case this is the last firing on this batch.
 
Yikes!

I have a bunch of win brass that has been shot 7 times and FL sized every time. I bump the shoulders two thou and really stretch the heck out of them. They are on their last firing because I can measure a slightly (.002") thinned spot on some cases. For obvious reasons, cases with any measurable thinning are discarded.

If you are neck sizing only and not bumping the shoulders, that case is a serious problem. I would ask Boyd or one of the more experienced guys, but I'd guess that the case had excessive headspace at some point in its life.

Do post pictures of the sectioned cases.
 
For newer reloaders wishing to read a bit more on this topic, here's an article dealing with case head separations: http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/05/reloading-case-head-separations.html

This is something we all need to be alert to as some lots of brass will show signs of incipient separation earlier than others.
 
Definitely, some brass will show signs of failure earlier than others.

However,

Is 44+ grains of Varget really "pushing it"? That's my standard load for Winchester brass with some even as high as 44.5 gr using the 175 gr bullet.
 
No, 44+ isn't pushing it in a standard chamber with a 300/308 bore. With a tight bore/ tight chamber/ jammed into the lands, it could be kind of warm.

In an M852 chamber, I can run a lot more than the 44.7 that shoots well with Win brass. On the other hand, I can't run more and get it to shoot well.
 
One way that you can get to this type of failure is to shoot light loads with a rimless case. If this is progressing, you would see increasing protruding primers as cases are repeatedly reloaded. If at some point you shot a hotter load, the case would be stretched, and the primers would be flush. Another way that this hot load pressure can be created is that the case necks can become too long, as the bodies get shorter, so that eventually they start to jam into the bullets as the rounds are chambered. This gets a little tricky because if you are only measuring case length, and not using some sort of gauge, at the shoulder, the fact that the necks are too long may not be noticed, since the bodies shortening will combine to keep the case lengths within limits.

On the other hand, If you pick a more normal pressure load, the primers will be flush, on every firing, but it is more likely that you will progress to needing FL sizing sooner.

What happens with light loads is that the firing pin strike, and the force of the primer on the bottom of the primer pocket knock the case froward in the chamber. The Case then grips the chamber wall with the pressure of the powder's burning, but the pressure level is not high enough to stretch the case back to the bolt face. Repeatedly done, this progressively shortens the case from shoulder to head, and lengthens the neck. It may not be apparent what is happening, if the cases are kept trimmed, but you can see it is taking place if you use some sort of gauge on the brass, or you may see that the primers are above flush on the fired cases.

Case designs with sharper shoulders are less prone to this sort of problem. The other side of the coin, for cases like the Ackley Improved, is that their primers are hard to read for pressure. The extreme flattening that shows up at high pressures with more normal case configurations happens in the interval that the case head is forward, and as it is stretched. With more extreme shoulder angles, cases have greater resistance to being knocked forward as they are fired.

When reloading for a Swift (smaller than average shoulder angle) I found that I needed to set the FL die so that cases "headspaces" were as they came out of the rifle after firing. Any shorter, and the additional room and the case could "take a run at" the chamber shoulder that allowed it to be driven farther forward as it was fired, and a bright line would show up on the next firing. I was using medium loads that had the primers flush. If I sized so as not to bump, but only maintain the same clearance as the fired case, the problem did not happen, and case life was good.

With more normal pressures, the variable may be how soft the shoulders are. Everything else being equal, thicker, harder brass will not as readily allow the case to be driven forward as it fired, so less stretching per firing will take place. This does not augur well for those who anneal cases that have relatively smaller shoulder angles. While gaining in one area, they may be losing in another.
 
Only case I have consistent problems with is 6HAGAR... see attached.

This cartridge has NO factory brass (yet*) so cases must be formed from either Remington 30 REM or Jamison 25 REM. There may be other brands too but I have yet to find / buy any to try.

Even with careful attention to pushing the shoulder back just 0.001" during sizing, the Jamison cases used for 600 yard prone stuff (space gun, across-the-course or mid-range @ 600 yards) tends to stretch where the case wall changes from a tapered section to straight.

This may be an instance where Boyd's comment about annealing shoulders has some importance. 6HAGAR cases MUST be annealed during forming & I've been annealing them about every 2nd or 3rd firing too for better neck tension consistency.

In three seasons' shooting I've had only one case failure on the line. Found a 308 bore brush works great for pulling the leftover piece out of the chamber.... No big deal when it failed, round still hit paper but way off call. Scorer quipped as he tossed me the ejected case head about how I could get a 9mm to shoot so good at 600 yards....

* Reports are that Hornady's about to make factory 6HAGAR brass available that will be significantly better than what we've been using so far.
 

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As our brass has reached 9ish loads.. we're getting head separations 4-5 pieces per session.... not complete separation... but a little worse than the original pic up top.

I've adjusted my die back out to where I'm about at a neck size only.... but I was squeezing them down too far for a while.

I'm so used to loading for the AR, that I had set my die up to run .308 in bolt and gas gun.... my brass is dropping like flies now.
 
I shoot several .308 rifles, anneal brass every three firings, full length size each time and do not have any evidence of brass stretching or separation. The shoulders are set from .001-.002 back, depending upon the rifle. These are not light loads and brass is usually lost around 10 to 14 firings to primer pockets. This applies equally to Winchester and Lapua standard brass. I am at 11 firings on some Lapua Palma brass and see no issues, either with case walls or primer pockets. [br]
The only rifles where I have seen consistent problems with brass stretch, despite proper sizing, are the rear locking Remington 788 and Steyr SSG. Even with those "springy" actions, moderate loads provide acceptable case life. My three 788s and the SSG were purchased new in the late 70s and early 80s, so I have a lot of experience with them. I suspect that autoloading actions, like the M1a I once shot in competition and the H&K 91 I still own, would also be prone to stretching. They just beat the brass so hard in other ways, I've never gotten enough firings to see it.
 
When I said 44+ loading the actual answer is 44.4 with both my 175s and 185s.

This was a batch of once fired from bolt guns when I got it, it is BHA head stamped, (they use WW), and has been FL resized twice. Once upon receipt and then once after 3x, to make a long story short I fired some of my match loads in my hunting rifle with stock chamber. After neck sizing they stuck in my match rifle but I didn't know which were which so after about 3X all cases went into the FL body die.

I use a Lee collet for necks. After I did the FL bodys at 3X I bumped shoulders .003 with a Forster bushing bump.

All were trimmed to 2.005 after the 3X prep cycle.

I wasn't surprised at all, I started sticking the bent paper clip in a sampling after the 4th firing looking for a notch. Haven't felt it before but this one it's pretty distinct.

I've pondered this for a while now and something occurred to me, I've never measured the shoulder before and after sizing the way I have my Lee Collet set up. I checked it this morning and at most the shoulder moves .0005, and that's the limit that my calipers can see. (that is half a thou, not 5 thou)

It was trimmed to 2.005 after 3, after 5 it is at 2.009. I measured two other cases that have been fired 4x and they are at 2.007.

I know cases fail, just a picture and a i just wanted to toss out a pic and remind people to watch for it if your brass is getting up there in load cycles, and wear your glasses. I'm not sure how much blast gets to you behind the rifle but a long time ago I had a 45ACP go KABOOM! with a 2x load of 231, took years before all the metal came out of my face and it ruined my shooting glasses.
 
XTR said:
I'm not sure how much blast gets to you behind the rifle but a long time ago I had a 45ACP go KABOOM! with a 2x load of 231, took years before all the metal came out of my face and it ruined my shooting glasses.
[br]
I understand what you're saying about pistols. Years ago, I switched from Bullseye to Green Dot for my .45 practice loads. Green Dot is so bulky that a double charge overflows the case. Even I can see that. ;)
 
To expand on what BoydAllen stated I have done experiments just dry firing once fired cases and the firing pin had enough force on some rifle to drive the shoulder of the case forward .001 each time the case was fired.

A good read on case life and full length resizing.

308fail.jpg



308fail-2.jpg
 
I would be interested in seeing if there was a difference if one of the same type of cases was "semi dry fired" with a live primer, to see if there was a difference in how far the shoulder was moved back. I live in a densely populated neighborhood, fifty minutes from the nearest range, so doing a quick test is not in the cards.
 
Also, Boyd, whether the firing pin diameter makes a difference. A smaller diameter would impart the force over a smaller area and possibly move the case less.
 
Mr BoydAllen

There is a warning in some reloading manuals to "NEVER" use cartridge cases that were used for reduced loads for normal full pressure loadings. This is because the firing pin does drive the shoulder back each time a reduced charge is fired.

Below is a reduced loading in a .303 British with the primer showing how much head clearance a case can have even in an Enfield that is within headspace limits. In this case it is a thin rim at near maximum headspace.

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100 grain Hornady pistol bullets fired in the old .303 British Enfield

IMGP2717-a.jpg


This can happen with any type case and not just a rimmed cartridge case.

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