Borescopes and Cleaning. What have you learned?

[ev780]

Love 'em or hate 'em they are here and cheap. Regardless of your beliefs on cleaning, you don't really know what's going on in there unless you look. I was shocked at my rifles! Caked black $h!t all the way and layered beautifully with copper. Carbon rings in the chambers had to be causing problems.

Hoppes, a bronze brush 1 stroke per shot, and patch out until they come clean may have worked for "....your daddy's shotgun, Cowboy," but my rifles deserve better!

I got frustrated trying to figure out what I was looking at, how to interpret it, and how far to go getting rid of what I thought I saw. Not a lot out there. Gunsmith's dirty little financial secret when presented with a rifle that doesn't shoot is to clean it properly. By the hour I presume! The bore (snake oil) solvent companies aren't helping because basically their products all work the same. Poorly! Benchrest guys? Competition is too close to give up many secrets but they are definitely on one end of the spectrum. Some of the guntube crowd are trying, but several times what they called firecracking, I called caked carbon (Bryan Litz vid) that departed quickly with Iosso. Barrel manufacturers are all over the place.

So let's use this tech to throw up some pictures/videos and educate ourselves. What works, what doesn't and what it looks like. Maybe this thread will grab hold.

So I've been obsessed with carbon ring removal. Today, I got one down to this........(Sorry the idea for this thread struck me after I had started work so there is no true "before" photo)




Anyone who has worked one of these knows it gets to diminishing returns. So how much effort is needed? 100% every cleaning? I accidentally stumbled on a potential answer. I pulled the mirror off the borescope, which I seldom do, because I saw something on the chamber shoulder I didn't like. It was nothing but this is the leading edge of the leade.....




So am I right in thinking that as long as the carbon buildup stays below the leade ledge (I'll stop) and short of the brass neck, I'm, good? I really don't think this carbon is enough to constitute a ring. Let alone have any impact on accuracy.

Also, in my first photo. I have yet to attack that black gunk in the leade and the 6" beyond. It sure is pretty and shiny though! At this point Wipeout Patchout and bronze brushes have quit working. All patches are clean. In my opinion it isn't clean until a bit of abrasive gets that back to metal color. Admittedly, I probably go too far with abrasives but it's mine and I can wash it as fast or as slow as I want. I believe clean is clean. I have a hard time worrying that a bit of greasy dead sea critters (Iosso) on a patch can inflict any damage close to an oversized projectile launched down a pipe and spun at 150,000 rpm, under 60,000 psi in a 5,000 degree plasma cloud.

Lets talk rimfires too if you want.

We can skip "the barrel will tell you" talk also. (drives me nuts) That's the equivalent if not doing a front end alignment until it starts to wobble. The barrel will only tell you what you know how ask it and the language it responds in may be a total mystery.

Happy Friday.

 

[jelenko]

First, I compete in 'cross the course' - 1/2 MOA groups are completely acceptable. The reason I mention that is, at least some, benchrest competitors are concerned about using little if any abrasive. Of course, they are looking for the absolutely smallest groups possible.

For me, I always clean with an abrasive until the lands are metal colored and the only visible black is in the 'corners' of the grooves. My typical range session is 60-100 rounds. I only clean when I get home.

My understanding is the black [i.e., 'carbon'] in the leade can build up and cause increased pressure and loss of accuracy. I have not tested that.

 

[Knotwild]

I have one. But I seem to be happiest when I just observe my targets when shooting, my patches when cleaning, and my personal rule of thumb which is clean every 50 rounds.

 

[DShortt]

The only thing a clean patch tells you is that you aren't removing anything from the barrel.
No telling what is actually in there. Maybe nothing.

 

[Spyder1958]

I use my bore scope every time I come home after a day of shooting. One thing I’m trying to learn is how much buildup of carbon and copper after X amount of rounds and how much it takes to clean it back to like new condition. I’m learning other things we can cover later.
I can take two patches of C4, then two patches of copper remover, with about 10-15 strokes with a nylon brush and patch, then dry patch till it’s dry. Wipe out chamber area and I’m ready for the next round. To get it absolutely spotless and looking like new I have to run a patch with Thorro clean or your favorite polish.

 

[JFrank]

A little carbon staining won’t hurt performance, and I don’t do this every time but when I’m in the mood I’ll wrap a patch around a soft nylon bore brush soaked in Throrroclean and put 50 or so strokes to clean the barrel clean.

 

[jelenko]

A little carbon staining won’t hurt performance, and I don’t do this every time but when I’m in the mood I’ll wrap a patch around a soft nylon bore brush soaked in Throrroclean and put 50 or so strokes to clean the barrel clean.

That's a clean barrel!

 

[C.E.Smith043]

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[Jabaski]

Got my first scope when chasing down a particularly egregious carbon ring. Along the way I found my 10 yr old box of Hornady 140gr A-MAX (Lot 3151641) had corroded inside the case so poorly that the projectile base and heel were pitted and the powder was clumped together. This was contributing to the accelerated level of carbon fouling.

When tackling the fouling with my unenlightened methods (Hoppes 9 & BR, Sweets, prayers) I turned to C4 and started making astounding progress. But the biggest difference for tackling the accursed carbon ring was a .270 nylon brush wrapped with a patch and saturated in C4 left to sit in the throat with occasional agitation. After a combined ~6 hours, I was seeing patches of bare metal. After another ~4, I was back to being completely clean.

So my recommendation for anyone trying to get rid of carbon would be a new brass brush and C4, with the targeted application on particularly dirty areas.





There is no way I would have gotten to this point without a scope to confirm the state of the throat. And now that I have one it's hard to go without.

 

[Shifty6br]

I've been boresnaking my barrels after range visits, particularly the high count ones. Depending where I am shooting at in relation to home I will just do it on site if I am far enough away to the point where the barrel completely cools down.

The key is to catch it while the barrel is fairly warm.....I have found this in practice that the carbon will be in a much softer state and a few pulls almost completely removes the carbon throughout the bore. It won't remove copper but copper is relatively easy to remove chemically. It's not an absolute cleaning method but does help keep the carbon buildup under control drastically between deep cleanings.

Borescopes can drive you bonkers sometimes but at the price they're going for there is really no reason not to have one.

 

[ricco1949]

I've been boresnaking my barrels after range visits, particularly the high count ones. Depending where I am shooting at in relation to home I will just do it on site if I am far enough away to the point where the barrel completely cools down.

The key is to catch it while the barrel is fairly warm.....I have found this in practice that the carbon will be in a much softer state and a few pulls almost completely removes the carbon throughout the bore. It won't remove copper but copper is relatively easy to remove chemically. It's not an absolute cleaning method but does help keep the carbon buildup under control drastically between deep cleanings.

Borescopes can drive you bonkers sometimes but at the price they're going for there is really no reason not to have one.

I've toyed with the idea of using a snake midday when PDn just to keep things sane.

But accounts of breaking the cord with the brush mid barrel and all the resulting horror gives me the b-jeebies....benefits don't seem to outweigh the risks.

 

[jelenko]

breaking the cord with the brush mid barrel

That would suck!

 

[jelenko]

Got my first scope when chasing down a particularly egregious carbon ring. Along the way I found my 10 yr old box of Hornady 140gr A-MAX (Lot 3151641) had corroded inside the case so poorly that the projectile base and heel were pitted and the powder was clumped together. This was contributing to the accelerated level of carbon fouling.

When tackling the fouling with my unenlightened methods (Hoppes 9 & BR, Sweets, prayers) I turned to C4 and started making astounding progress. But the biggest difference for tackling the accursed carbon ring was a .270 nylon brush wrapped with a patch and saturated in C4 left to sit in the throat with occasional agitation. After a combined ~6 hours, I was seeing patches of bare metal. After another ~4, I was back to being completely clean.

So my recommendation for anyone trying to get rid of carbon would be a new brass brush and C4, with the targeted application on particularly dirty areas.

View attachment 1669510

View attachment 1669511

There is no way I would have gotten to this point without a scope to confirm the state of the throat. And now that I have one it's hard to go without.

About how many rounds were down the barrel when you first started cleaning?
Did you add C4 to the patch after initially soaking it?
Did you run dry patches through the bore at any time during the 6 hour and 4 hours?

 

[Shifty6br]

I've toyed with the idea of using a snake midday when PDn just to keep things sane.

But accounts of breaking the cord with the brush mid barrel and all the resulting horror gives me the b-jeebies....benefits don't seem to outweigh the risks.

Fair enough...like most.things I try to be vigilante in the actual condition of things of this nature..meaning replacement when needed. I think the weakest point is where the pull string meets the rest of the thicker material..at which point it is wrapped around my hand and I am pulling on the meat of the snake.

I wouldn't use it on a hot to touch barrel but warm with a few squints of rem oil for lubricisouty and it glides right thru surprisingly slick..as the saying goes...to each their own.

 

[ev780]

I have one. But I seem to be happiest when I just observe my targets when shooting, my patches when cleaning, and my personal rule of thumb which is clean every 50 rounds.

Probably the right answer. Just like cell phones, tech ruins everything.

A little carbon staining won’t hurt performance, and I don’t do this every time but when I’m in the mood I’ll wrap a patch around a soft nylon bore brush soaked in Throrroclean and put 50 or so strokes to clean the barrel clean.

"The mood" is the heart of how I hope this goes. I have been in the mood too much and I love to see my barrels looking like yours. So is it worse to use a small amount of abrasives and elbow grease often or a lot of abrasives and elbow grease later.

Right now I just don't like the idea of layered crud. But let's keep working on the answer.

Got my first scope when chasing down a particularly egregious carbon ring. Along the way I found my 10 yr old box of Hornady 140gr A-MAX (Lot 3151641) had corroded inside the case so poorly that the projectile base and heel were pitted and the powder was clumped together. This was contributing to the accelerated level of carbon fouling.

When tackling the fouling with my unenlightened methods (Hoppes 9 & BR, Sweets, prayers) I turned to C4 and started making astounding progress. But the biggest difference for tackling the accursed carbon ring was a .270 nylon brush wrapped with a patch and saturated in C4 left to sit in the throat with occasional agitation. After a combined ~6 hours, I was seeing patches of bare metal. After another ~4, I was back to being completely clean.

So my recommendation for anyone trying to get rid of carbon would be a new brass brush and C4, with the targeted application on particularly dirty areas.

View attachment 1669510

View attachment 1669511

There is no way I would have gotten to this point without a scope to confirm the state of the throat. And now that I have one it's hard to go without.

I have not had as good of luck with C4 yet. Looks like longer soaking intervals are key. Wipeout Patchout is the same way but it gets anemic against the hard carbon.

First couple of lessons.

Clean is clean! Glad to see that.

You don't need Unicorn tears to clean. Careful use of abrasives won't hurt barrels. We used to use Comet on everything until "everything" got so cheap it couldn't take it!

Keep those pics coming.

 

[Bronsin]

The only thing I have found out about borescopes and cleaning after 20+ years is that even if everyone owned one, they would still argue about the best way to do it.

 

[jelenko]

So is it worse to use a small amount of abrasives and elbow grease often or a lot of abrasives and elbow grease later.

I think this is a great question/point. I don't think it makes any difference in potential wear on the barrel [if there is any wear at all] but it keeps the condition of the bore in a known state.

 

[DShortt]

What I have learned from owning a borescope is that clean patches and a bright, shiny bore when viewed toward a light source doesn't tell you a thing about what is actually in, or not in the bore.
Now, does that matter on the target? That is where the debate comes from because the answer is *maybe*.

 

[Jabaski]

About how many rounds were down the barrel when you first started cleaning?
Did you add C4 to the patch after initially soaking it?
Did you run dry patches through the bore at any time during the 6 hour and 4 hours?

Overall that barrel had ~250 rounds when that photo was taken. You'll have to excuse my poor practice up to this point, but that barrel is usually "cleaned" after each trip. Probably 20-40 rounds between cleaning. I had not at that time begun my in-depth cleaning regime targeting the throat/free-bore and leade. I only noticed the issue with the carbon ring when the bolt close became heavy or impossible, and the ogive was showing scratches after unchambering a round. I include all this to say, what I thought was good was not in fact even close.

When I started tackling the carbon ring, I took an overall approach and used Eliminator and C4 throughout the whole bore to clean everything out. It wasn't perfect when scoped, but the majority of carbon and nearly all of the copper was removed. But still that didn't even put a dent to the carbon buildup in the throat. So my target approach went like so:

First, I got a nylon brush the next size up and applied to C4 to target the throat. I scrubbed in circles maybe 50 rotations but that didn't really touch the carbon. More of a tickle.

Next, I took the same oversized nylon brush and wrapped a 2" square patch around it, soaked with C4, and stuck it into the throat and let it sit. I set a stop-watch and gave it a good 10-20 rotations every 15-30 minutes. Repeat for ~6 hours. I wasn't really watching the clock too closely, but after 6 hours I pulled it out and the patch was absolutely black with carbon.

I did another round of scrubbing the bore with a new 6.5mm bronze brush soaked with C4 and a few dry patches in between. Maybe 3x30 strokes with the brush. Though this didn't really touch the throat. So I decided to repeat the soaking process for another ~4 hours. After that was done, I saw what was posted above, a completely bare throat. And the leade was impressively shiny clean as well.

Otherwise, I didn't run any patches through the bore aside from what I used combined with the brushing at the 6 hour mark.


A bit off topic, but after completely cleaning the throat, I went and shot 25 rounds of much newer Hornady 140gr ELD-M (Lot 3246484) and it still managed to utterly carbon foul the throat. I read around about that generation of 12LRP had issues with inadequately reamed chambers, which might have been the case. But for about the same price as getting that cluster unfucked I opted for a new Shilen bull barrel and so far it has been absolutely fantastic. Also, to their credit the Savage barrel change process is very approachable for an amateur.

 

[demarpaint1]

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