blueing tank burners

[doubleDarms]

Any of you gunsmith's out there have any experience with LP gas and blueing tanks? I'm having trouble getting the 909 cleaning solution tank to 180 degrees. I've got the Brownells first step blueing kit with two black iron tanks, and one single line burner, like 1 1/2" pipe. And one double row burner, like 2" pipe. The single line burner is supposed to save gas. I've moved it up as high as it will go, without cutting out some of the tank stand cross bar.

And I've switched orifices from the #53 to the #51. The #51 was recommended for the big burner, but I tried it to see if more gas was needed? All I can get is about 155 degrees, will getting even bigger orifices help? Or is LP gas just not enough? Do I need to switch to natural gas?

I can't even imagine getting the blueing tank to 292 degrees !!!Even with the bigger burner.

Many Thanks,
Paul

 

[Preacher]

Paul,
I've been using propane on my set up for over 20 years here with no problems getting it to heat to over 300 degrees.
Everything came from Brownells except the propane tanks....
Mine are all double row burners..... a single may not be enough.
Drill some more holes in it to match the other ones you have..
I'm about 3 inches from the bottom of the tanks with my burners...
I also use 20 # tanks for whatever thats worth.....

 

[Hammerhead]

Preacher may be on to something.
I am not sure what size tank you are using, but that could be your problem. I don't have blueing tanks, but have always needed larger tanks to run burners for a neon plant.

Tim

 

[b00mer]

I use a 110lb tank on my 4 brownells burners, they cam with orifice's for lp or propane, 20 yrs and no problems,except cost of lp is gone out the roof

 

[doubleDarms]

Thanks fella's I'll try drilling more holes. I still haven't tried the double row burner, so I'll see what it does today.

Happy shooting,
Paul

 

[sjk]

I made mine from 1.250 dia black iron,cheapie)with around .060 dia holes placed 1.00 apart at a 45 degree angle,double row) for the entire length of the tanks. You will have a longer flame at the origin and smaller as it goes along to its length so it's a good idea to change apertures a few .OO1'S larger about 1/2 way starting from the middle of the burner or you can feed the LP in from both sides and the problem is gone forever. The holes load up after a lot of use so keep thewm cleaned out or you will get uneven heat. Set your pressure regulator at the proper setting. I used the 20 lb'r and the burners for 35 years and when I sold them they still got way over the required temperature. It's a long way from 212 to 300 degrees but the lp should work just fine. I never had any problems. Remember : the more salts added means a higher rolling boil temperature
LOL

 

[doubleDarms]

I talked to a maintenance man at work today,,heating and air guy). And he said with my tanks being in the basement, about 65 degrees,guesstiment). That my LP tank was to cold, and that the pressure just isn't enough from a tank that cold, out in the sun on a grill or whatever, they'll work just fine. And he said I definitely need a regulator. He said to sit the LP tank down in a big bucket of hot water from the sink about 15 minutes before I light it and it will have the pressure to burn good. But in the end I just need a regulator to up the pressure !

Happy shooting,
Paul

 

[sjk]

DON'T FORGET THE VENTILATION!!!!! and a breathing apparatus if necessary. Your heating and air guy should have been most emphatic about it
Again, LOL

 

[doubleDarms]

Got the hot water tank working just fine with the single row pipe. But I still could only get the blueing salts tank to about 205 degrees with the big double row burner pipe and a regulator.

I'm going to let it cool off and after a bit raise the pipe burner up another 1/2 inch or so. right now it's about 2 1/2 inches from the bottom of the tank.

I think that might cure the rest of my problems, because I'm getting a good strong flame now !!

Oh yea, he did say to have it well ventiliated, but I already had a make shift range hood made out of plastic tubs. With 2 140 cfm exhaust fans in it. Plus a floor fan blowing towards a sliding glass door about 12 feet away.

Thanks to you all,
Paul

 

[Preacher]

Paul-- the flames tips should be just touching the bottom of the tank for the best
heat.
Also my tanks are on the outside of the building in the shade....
Make sure the salts are the right mix in the filtered water...

 

[doubleDarms]

Yea, I'm finding that out preacher ! I tried moving them up to about 1 3/4 inches away and still only got to about 205 degrees. I'm going to move them all the way up in a little while and try again this evening.

I'm wondering if drilling out the holes in the burner will help any, like just one bit size bigger. Because I still don't get a real strong flame from the dual burner. The smaller pipe burner with the single row of holes will flame up about 3/4 of an inch or more. But the big double row burner will only go to like 1/4 inch or maybe a little more no matter what I do.

If I don't get it this time I'm just going to go to natural gas!

Thanks again,
Paul

 

[doubleDarms]

Hooking up natural gas to blueing tank, no matter what I try I just can't get enough pressure out of lp gas to do it. I've changed orifices,used every possible set-up of two lp tanks and two regulators. I've moved the burner up as high as it will go, I've played around with the valves on the tank, and burner, trying to get a more efficient flame/pressure.

But no matter what I do I just can't get the lp gas flame bigger than like 1/4 inch, and that's a very liberal measurement ! Now the smaller 1 1/2 inch pipe with the single row of burner holes will shoot flame up probably close to an inch ! I can get it to 180 degrees for the dicro cleaning in just a few minutes. Then I have to back it off or it will keep going. I'm quite sure it will reach boiling for plain water.

I've never tried to use the small burner on the blueing salts, I don't know maybe it would do it. I'm beginning to believe it's the large 2 inch dia. double row burner that's the problem. I'm no combustion engineer or whatever but I think there's just to much air volume in that large pipe. I bet if I drilled a double row of holes in the small pipe it would work just fine.

But I've got a nat. gas line just right there so I'm going to quit fighting it and just hook it up!

Thanks for the help,
Paul

 

[Preacher]

Don't forget to let us know how that works out for you...

 

[Eddie Harren]

I've been using the Brownell's burner set up for years, with Propane, with no problems. The pipe on my burners is 3/4 black iron.

 

[fzapp]

The problem is that the regulator is too small for the size of burner you're trying to use. The orifice in the regulator must be large enough to supply enough gas to all of the burner orifices with 11" of water column "WC".

With the Natural gas you will have to change out the burner orifices to the larger sizes. If the natural gas is coming off of your house gas supply the regulator should be large enough to supply all that you need. Natural gas regulators are set to 4" WC pressure.

Propane has roughly 2 1/2 times the BTU NG does hence the orifice change. I wouldn't advise drilling out the propane orifices..they are drilled at the factory for 11" WC gas supply. If you add more holes of the same size no problem but keep in mind the regulator must be large enough to supply them. Most of the cheap small BBQ regulators you buy at the hardware will be too small,2" dia size). You can double them up in parallel. If you guys aren't getting good flame to the end of the burner tube you aren't supplying enough gas to the burner.

Burner adjustment:
If the flame is burning off of the orifice, the pressure is too high. Meaning the flame isn't in contact with the orifice.
In both cases wether it be NG or propane adjust your air mixer for the flame to be predominately blue with just a bit of white/light yellow at it's tip. If the flame is noisy and eratic then it is too lean, too much air.

Tank size:
The small 20# cylinders will most likley work for the BBQ and smaller size burners. But 100# will always be better. The best being your 250gl on up. If you pull too hard on a small cylinder the temp in the cylinder will drop as well as the pressure and not provide enough propane pressure to get a proper burn.
CAUTION! Do not over heat these cylinders. Rule of thumb propane @ 100°= 200psi. I'm not sure what the tank relief is set at but I wouldn't heat that tank over 100°. That's why they paint these tanks white or a light color to shed radiant heat from the sun.


Not trying to be a know it all,,but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night!)but I've just got some good background in HVAC and industrial burner comustion systems is all. Just thought I'd try and help.
Be safe!

 

[doubleDarms]

Thanks fellas I'll keep you updated

 

[doubleDarms]

Finally got it hooked up to natural gas, worked like a charm the first time. With one little problem, the 870 I blued is black ! I don't mean blue/black I mean black/black !!! It makes dark midnight black look light. Right at about 15-17 minutes in the tank it started getting hot, about 302 degrees. Started adding water, but I wasn't quick enough I guess. It got up to about 305 degrees. I tried turning down the gas a tiny little bit and it almost immediately quit boiling. So I turned it back up and tried adding more water. At about 25 minutes I jerked the barrel and receiver out and I think the temp. was like 303. Is that what did it?
Many Thanks,
Paul

 

[Preacher]

Your temps are plenty high, but altitude has a lot to do with that....
You need to be constantly stirring, and adding water, not waiting till it's
to hot, and then adding water.
Even thought they call it bluing, it seems more like black to me to..
300 degrees will not hurt a thing, but no need to go any higher unless your doing nickel steel......

 

[doubleDarms]

Yes but, when I compare the freshly blued 870 to my factory blued guns,Rem. 700, T/C Encore, Rem. 1100, S&W Mod. 19 etc) its way blacker. Is blacker a word? It's like 3 or 4 shades darker than anything I've got that's original factory.

Paul