wildcatter
Silver $$ Contributor
I just seen this old thread from a search, and am astonished how misunderstood this powder is in this, usually very informed community!!! I haven't looked at others, but it made want to post an absolute factual M/L thread from years of getting into M/L's, both smokeless, and substitute BP Muzzleloading, before anyone made or heard of smokeless, at least before they were commercially made.
From what I have read, on all of the post in the BH thread I read, i don't think a single poster knows how to use it. in the first biggest mistake I seen, it is never used in magnum muzzle loaders at a weight of 150 grain as its loaded by weight! 120 grains by weight is comparable to 150 grain volumes of other BP substitutes, for both pressure and velocity.
No it is not a good performer with any 209 primer! It requires the hottest primers available! Remington SST and Federal 209M are proven performers. It also can require opening up the flash hole on some breach plugs, this should only be done by those competent and with guidance from those that are familiar and experienced doing it. A good hot consistent ignition is important with Blackhorn for best performance, (accuracy)!
I also found a very tight sabot gives best accuracy, belted bullets that load with minimal force will shoot every time, but if you want UNDER MOA ACCURACY, I have found very tight sabots get that job done, and I mean 5 shot groups. cold barrel will shoot to the same poi as the 5th shot. I use my own cast 275 grain HPSWC bullet, at .4515" in a Red crush rib Harvester sabot, the black, thinner, not quite as good with my dia. bullets.
I also only shoot or sight in after 3 or 4 shots, then I have gone a hole year with the load seated in my T/C Omega, that had over 50 previous shots on it and hit a 3" gong at 100 yards, resting elbows on a bench with no rest. I had a hunting buddy with me and reloaded and shot 2 more, with the same results. Then completely cleaned the rifle for the first time after using it the previous year for gun and M/L season. As easy as I clean my bench gun between relays. After treating the bore after cleaning with Bore Butter, three or four seasoning shots, and had him watch me put 5 shots in under 7/8" group at 100 yards. Yes, he now uses nothing but Blackhorn in his Omega and his kids CVA.
My experience with smokeless, and BP substitutes started far before there was ever a commercial smokeless M/L available. My gunsmith at the time, and hand cut rifle barrel maker was making both, smokeless M/L's as well as .14 cal. and .17 cal. rimfires long before the public ever thought of any of them. Yes the M/L's were crude at the beginning, starting with New England single shot shotguns, converted by installing cut rifled Stainless Steel barrel liners in 45 and 50 cal. with breech plugs chambered for 9mm or 45 acp primed cases. we used IMR or H 4895 powder with Small and Large rifle primers. both sabot and lead M/L bullets were used. in brush my favorite was the Hornady 295 grn Great Plains HBHP, DRT on every deer I killed for 3 years out to 135 or a bit over, dropped in there tracks.
But we were cautious back in the late 1980's experimenting, and at 75 yards, under 3/4" groups soon showed the lack of small extreme velocity spreads with the low pressure loads we shooting, and beyond 125 yards those groups started showing to much vertical stringing because of the extreme velocity spreads we were shooting. but for eastern hardwoods, they were killer, and at one time with Great Plains being my bullet, these converted single shots in 45 cal, with over 100 rounds thru it, around 1900fps went for over two seasons before I cleaned it.
Then came the first Savage, one few have ever seen. The first used a priming capsule for your choice of 209 primer. This model was soon replaced by Savage after the initial introduction by the M/L II, after pressure from the ATF because of its ability to swap barrels to a centerfire. I should have kept this rare rifle but soon sold it after a couple years, and taking deer beyond 250 yards reliably.
About this time I got acquainted with Cecil Epps in Canada, owner of Precision Bullets, the designer and maker of the then famed "Dead Center" M/L bullets. I soon sold the Savage went with an Encore and started shooting his bullets. The Dead Center was popular but after many conversations with him, I soon started using his Extreme Bullets, a more rounded choice for close and distance, with the 40 cal, 240 grain, spitzer HP BT. The 50 cal Encore was never up to my liking. I did 6 barrels in all with it, some the frebore at the muzzel was removed, for very minor improvement. The Katadin barrel then I gave up on this 1 1/2" at best rifle, and that came at lower velocity loads. 777, Pyrodex, BP, White hots, pellets loose you name it. Locker pins, breech plugs from small rifle to pistol to all the 209's.
Finally I bought 2 Omegas, according to T/C the same barrels, just different actions. But instantly, the Omega easily equaled anything the Savage or a Remington I had for a short while would do. Then 777 and the nightmare it created! Yes I got good accuracy with it, but not consistently. It took practice, sticking patches in your mouth so you could spit patch if more than one shot was needed. Plus spit patching became less than consistent for load to load. I did take my longest shot at a deer with a M/L using it, 336 yards, using the 240 grain PB Extreme HPBT, in a 40caliber sabot for the 50 caliber barrel.
Then they introduced the 209 M/L primer? Ya, a glorified low heat range primer, aimed at reducing the crud ring left from the 777 powder or pellets. This I suppose they learned from the sale of breech plugs from Cecil Epps allowing the use of 25 acp brass with small pistol primers as well as other plugs converted to other configurations all aimed at less flame to ignite the 777 propellants, to help reduce that crud ring.
Then Came the Blackhorn 209 powder. Sadly it took Western this long to get the composition right. But it also was not in any way similar to any of the past substitutes for Black Powder! In my opinion, it was Superior! It needed different attention to components to be it's best, and most consistent. I can't count the shooters I have seen and argued with telling me how the M/L primers were not their problem, they were made for 209 inline M/L's, BIGG MISTAKE! They are made for one purpose, and they suck at that! Less flame to reduce crud ring fowling using 777 powder! Nothing else, and no, they are a piss poor choice for any other smokeless substitute or black powder.
The first thing I did was use my WW-209 primers. I instantly noticed how this sounded like I was shooting my old cap lock M/L. Not as noticeable, but I was definitely getting a delayed fire. Now after much research, I found that those getting stellar results were using the hottest 209 primers made, at the time they were using 2 primers only, Remington SST, and Federal 209M, both magnum primers giving hotter ignition. It helped, and I was getting as good a groups and performance as I did with any other M/L I ever owned.
Then a conversation with Toby Bridges, a sometimes over board explorer of M/L's and loads, but a definite hands on guy. A Savage fan boy all the way, until he over did it and disintegrated an M/L II rifle! But with Blackhorn now, and Knight as his research he mentioned my flash hole. Something he got in trouble with with Savage, and a triple hole plug? Debatable, many other things were involved with the failure, but anyways, it sent him in another direction. But after conferring with him, and following up with a conversation with Cecil, I opened up my flash hole with torch tip drill bits, slightly, one size bigger than would fit the factory flash hole. Dam, what a difference. Instant performance from proper ignition, it fired every time before, but now you could just feel and hear a difference.
I soon ran out of My stash of Extreme Bullets, and had to do a lot of experimenting. PT gold bullets and Harvester Sabots soon filled the need I had to find a great load again, even better than the PB Extreme's. But one season in and I got a new mold, a Mihec 274 SWCHP. With 50/50 pure lead wheel weight alloy in the Red Harvester sabot just as it fell from the mold, at .4515"-.452", w/ a weighted load of 85 grains, about 120 grains by volume, I had a target accuracy load that I could shoot all year and maintain under 5 shot groups under 7/8" at 100 yards, over and over. I don't know the speed but 1 1/2" high at 100 yards and the 1-6x20mm Meopta Optica 6 is aim dead on out 200 yards, as far as I need these days in Ohio for where I hunt.
Then the second year I used this, after ruining a barrel letting it set after season till the following fall hunting season using 777. I decided to see if it was as they stated, non corrosive? The triple 7 definitely was not, regardless if it was moisture drawn with its fowling in the barrel, it rusted the stainless Encore barrel. Yes pitted from a year of 777 fouling in the bore! But after testing it in an Encore barrel for an entire off season, I finally the second year gave it the full monty in my beloved LE Rosewood laminated Thumbhole stocked stainless Omega. Over 50 shots that year, never patching, and loaded for weeks at a time, to always hit dead on when tested between seasons. Then after our January M/L season primer removed, and in the safe for more than 6 months, I took it to the range to unload. This is when the story above with my hunting buddy took place. That months old load hit its mark, as well as 2 follow up loads.
There you have it. I will never use another powder in my M/L, or bullet/Sabot for that mater. I only hunt with it, but will pay whatever if I had to. Fortunately, with one full 10 oz can, and a nearly full second, at my age for my needs, I will never need it. Even using newer Custom smokless M/L's the gain over mine is minimal, once pushed beyond 2200 or so, accuracy will begin to open up, and I will trade speed any day for better accuracy!
Then with rangefinders today, hell speed is way over rated, I know where my gun shoots as long as I know the range. But chasing speed with any M/L, that has to have a bullet seated from the muzzle, accuracy will deteriorate rapidly, as plastic fouling is going to happen the faster you push it. I'll take my 1900+ and never worry about where the next shot will hit, regardless how many shots, or long its been loaded.
A lotta wind I know, but trust me, when used properly, no powder can duplicate Blakhorn, even smokeless won't out do it. I hope this helps some with the myths surrounding the Powders and primers associated with modern M/L's. I will also say 3/4 of a lbs. of Blackhorn, will load the same amount of loads from other BP substitutes, bulk over weight. And please remember 120 grain load by weight, equals a 150 grain load by volume all other BP's and substitutes provide! 150 grain load is to hot for most any M/L!
From what I have read, on all of the post in the BH thread I read, i don't think a single poster knows how to use it. in the first biggest mistake I seen, it is never used in magnum muzzle loaders at a weight of 150 grain as its loaded by weight! 120 grains by weight is comparable to 150 grain volumes of other BP substitutes, for both pressure and velocity.
No it is not a good performer with any 209 primer! It requires the hottest primers available! Remington SST and Federal 209M are proven performers. It also can require opening up the flash hole on some breach plugs, this should only be done by those competent and with guidance from those that are familiar and experienced doing it. A good hot consistent ignition is important with Blackhorn for best performance, (accuracy)!
I also found a very tight sabot gives best accuracy, belted bullets that load with minimal force will shoot every time, but if you want UNDER MOA ACCURACY, I have found very tight sabots get that job done, and I mean 5 shot groups. cold barrel will shoot to the same poi as the 5th shot. I use my own cast 275 grain HPSWC bullet, at .4515" in a Red crush rib Harvester sabot, the black, thinner, not quite as good with my dia. bullets.
I also only shoot or sight in after 3 or 4 shots, then I have gone a hole year with the load seated in my T/C Omega, that had over 50 previous shots on it and hit a 3" gong at 100 yards, resting elbows on a bench with no rest. I had a hunting buddy with me and reloaded and shot 2 more, with the same results. Then completely cleaned the rifle for the first time after using it the previous year for gun and M/L season. As easy as I clean my bench gun between relays. After treating the bore after cleaning with Bore Butter, three or four seasoning shots, and had him watch me put 5 shots in under 7/8" group at 100 yards. Yes, he now uses nothing but Blackhorn in his Omega and his kids CVA.
My experience with smokeless, and BP substitutes started far before there was ever a commercial smokeless M/L available. My gunsmith at the time, and hand cut rifle barrel maker was making both, smokeless M/L's as well as .14 cal. and .17 cal. rimfires long before the public ever thought of any of them. Yes the M/L's were crude at the beginning, starting with New England single shot shotguns, converted by installing cut rifled Stainless Steel barrel liners in 45 and 50 cal. with breech plugs chambered for 9mm or 45 acp primed cases. we used IMR or H 4895 powder with Small and Large rifle primers. both sabot and lead M/L bullets were used. in brush my favorite was the Hornady 295 grn Great Plains HBHP, DRT on every deer I killed for 3 years out to 135 or a bit over, dropped in there tracks.
But we were cautious back in the late 1980's experimenting, and at 75 yards, under 3/4" groups soon showed the lack of small extreme velocity spreads with the low pressure loads we shooting, and beyond 125 yards those groups started showing to much vertical stringing because of the extreme velocity spreads we were shooting. but for eastern hardwoods, they were killer, and at one time with Great Plains being my bullet, these converted single shots in 45 cal, with over 100 rounds thru it, around 1900fps went for over two seasons before I cleaned it.
Then came the first Savage, one few have ever seen. The first used a priming capsule for your choice of 209 primer. This model was soon replaced by Savage after the initial introduction by the M/L II, after pressure from the ATF because of its ability to swap barrels to a centerfire. I should have kept this rare rifle but soon sold it after a couple years, and taking deer beyond 250 yards reliably.
About this time I got acquainted with Cecil Epps in Canada, owner of Precision Bullets, the designer and maker of the then famed "Dead Center" M/L bullets. I soon sold the Savage went with an Encore and started shooting his bullets. The Dead Center was popular but after many conversations with him, I soon started using his Extreme Bullets, a more rounded choice for close and distance, with the 40 cal, 240 grain, spitzer HP BT. The 50 cal Encore was never up to my liking. I did 6 barrels in all with it, some the frebore at the muzzel was removed, for very minor improvement. The Katadin barrel then I gave up on this 1 1/2" at best rifle, and that came at lower velocity loads. 777, Pyrodex, BP, White hots, pellets loose you name it. Locker pins, breech plugs from small rifle to pistol to all the 209's.
Finally I bought 2 Omegas, according to T/C the same barrels, just different actions. But instantly, the Omega easily equaled anything the Savage or a Remington I had for a short while would do. Then 777 and the nightmare it created! Yes I got good accuracy with it, but not consistently. It took practice, sticking patches in your mouth so you could spit patch if more than one shot was needed. Plus spit patching became less than consistent for load to load. I did take my longest shot at a deer with a M/L using it, 336 yards, using the 240 grain PB Extreme HPBT, in a 40caliber sabot for the 50 caliber barrel.
Then they introduced the 209 M/L primer? Ya, a glorified low heat range primer, aimed at reducing the crud ring left from the 777 powder or pellets. This I suppose they learned from the sale of breech plugs from Cecil Epps allowing the use of 25 acp brass with small pistol primers as well as other plugs converted to other configurations all aimed at less flame to ignite the 777 propellants, to help reduce that crud ring.
Then Came the Blackhorn 209 powder. Sadly it took Western this long to get the composition right. But it also was not in any way similar to any of the past substitutes for Black Powder! In my opinion, it was Superior! It needed different attention to components to be it's best, and most consistent. I can't count the shooters I have seen and argued with telling me how the M/L primers were not their problem, they were made for 209 inline M/L's, BIGG MISTAKE! They are made for one purpose, and they suck at that! Less flame to reduce crud ring fowling using 777 powder! Nothing else, and no, they are a piss poor choice for any other smokeless substitute or black powder.
The first thing I did was use my WW-209 primers. I instantly noticed how this sounded like I was shooting my old cap lock M/L. Not as noticeable, but I was definitely getting a delayed fire. Now after much research, I found that those getting stellar results were using the hottest 209 primers made, at the time they were using 2 primers only, Remington SST, and Federal 209M, both magnum primers giving hotter ignition. It helped, and I was getting as good a groups and performance as I did with any other M/L I ever owned.
Then a conversation with Toby Bridges, a sometimes over board explorer of M/L's and loads, but a definite hands on guy. A Savage fan boy all the way, until he over did it and disintegrated an M/L II rifle! But with Blackhorn now, and Knight as his research he mentioned my flash hole. Something he got in trouble with with Savage, and a triple hole plug? Debatable, many other things were involved with the failure, but anyways, it sent him in another direction. But after conferring with him, and following up with a conversation with Cecil, I opened up my flash hole with torch tip drill bits, slightly, one size bigger than would fit the factory flash hole. Dam, what a difference. Instant performance from proper ignition, it fired every time before, but now you could just feel and hear a difference.
I soon ran out of My stash of Extreme Bullets, and had to do a lot of experimenting. PT gold bullets and Harvester Sabots soon filled the need I had to find a great load again, even better than the PB Extreme's. But one season in and I got a new mold, a Mihec 274 SWCHP. With 50/50 pure lead wheel weight alloy in the Red Harvester sabot just as it fell from the mold, at .4515"-.452", w/ a weighted load of 85 grains, about 120 grains by volume, I had a target accuracy load that I could shoot all year and maintain under 5 shot groups under 7/8" at 100 yards, over and over. I don't know the speed but 1 1/2" high at 100 yards and the 1-6x20mm Meopta Optica 6 is aim dead on out 200 yards, as far as I need these days in Ohio for where I hunt.
Then the second year I used this, after ruining a barrel letting it set after season till the following fall hunting season using 777. I decided to see if it was as they stated, non corrosive? The triple 7 definitely was not, regardless if it was moisture drawn with its fowling in the barrel, it rusted the stainless Encore barrel. Yes pitted from a year of 777 fouling in the bore! But after testing it in an Encore barrel for an entire off season, I finally the second year gave it the full monty in my beloved LE Rosewood laminated Thumbhole stocked stainless Omega. Over 50 shots that year, never patching, and loaded for weeks at a time, to always hit dead on when tested between seasons. Then after our January M/L season primer removed, and in the safe for more than 6 months, I took it to the range to unload. This is when the story above with my hunting buddy took place. That months old load hit its mark, as well as 2 follow up loads.
There you have it. I will never use another powder in my M/L, or bullet/Sabot for that mater. I only hunt with it, but will pay whatever if I had to. Fortunately, with one full 10 oz can, and a nearly full second, at my age for my needs, I will never need it. Even using newer Custom smokless M/L's the gain over mine is minimal, once pushed beyond 2200 or so, accuracy will begin to open up, and I will trade speed any day for better accuracy!
Then with rangefinders today, hell speed is way over rated, I know where my gun shoots as long as I know the range. But chasing speed with any M/L, that has to have a bullet seated from the muzzle, accuracy will deteriorate rapidly, as plastic fouling is going to happen the faster you push it. I'll take my 1900+ and never worry about where the next shot will hit, regardless how many shots, or long its been loaded.
A lotta wind I know, but trust me, when used properly, no powder can duplicate Blakhorn, even smokeless won't out do it. I hope this helps some with the myths surrounding the Powders and primers associated with modern M/L's. I will also say 3/4 of a lbs. of Blackhorn, will load the same amount of loads from other BP substitutes, bulk over weight. And please remember 120 grain load by weight, equals a 150 grain load by volume all other BP's and substitutes provide! 150 grain load is to hot for most any M/L!
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