Beware of unwritten rules

[yat3b35]

To everyone======= beware of unwritten rules at local matches! I was able to make 4 groundhog matches this year , at a club that will go unmentioned , of which I was lucky enough to win 3 matches. My girlfriend made two of those matches with me and we both shot the SAME rifle. The first match she shot , ( with the same rifle as me ) , she placed 14th in limited class. I placed 8th in limited class . Nothing was said about us using the same rifle , nor is there any written rules pertaining to 2 people using the same rifle in a match . At the most recent match we again shot the same rifle , still no mention about two people using the same rifle , until I again won the match with a score of 148 - 11x and she fired a 148 - 9x . At the awards everyone was told a single rifle may not be used by two people during a match . I was awarded top prize which I refused. One of us had to be disqualified , so I gave up 1st place so she could place. Otherwise she would not have won anything!

I guess someone didn't want to get beaten by a lady and complained about us shooting the same rifle. GUESS what ? She won , and beat all the men ! Oh I guess that means I only won two of their matches this year and got beat by my dear lady. John

 

[spclark]

At the awards everyone was told a single rifle may not be used by two people during a match.

That's ridiculous. What could be more in keeping with the spirit of competition that to let two competitors use the same equipment?

And WHY wait until the awards ceremony to make mention of some rule prohibiting this practice?

Man, if it's not written into the match program, or sponsoring authority's rules for that kind of competition it's not a rule, just some pissant's idea about how to save face.

 

[bozo699]

At the awards everyone was told a single rifle may not be used by two people during a match.

That's ridiculous. What could be more in keeping with the spirit of competition that to let two competitors use the same equipment?

And WHY wait until the awards ceremony to make mention of some rule prohibiting this practice?

Man, if it's not written into the match program, or sponsoring authority's rules for that kind of competition it's not a rule, just some pissant's idea about how to save face.

Yea what he said!!

 

[Dgd6mm]

I never did like a place that makes the rules up as you go along. They know who the top shooters are , oh yeah. Good Shooting to both of you keep it up.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

Good move John.

I agree that it was their egos getting the better of them. Best medicine for that is to be beat by the girl!

Unwritten rules stink - if they aren't on paper, I don't care to compete (or give them my entry money!).

 

[fdshuster]

Any match worth its' salt will have the rules made available right up front, many even having hard copies available as handouts for each competitor & even for those who are considering competing at a later date. Anything less is a sleazy operation & one in which I would not participate. I've never run across a match that does not permit 2 different people from using the same rifle on different relays.

 

[fullersson]

John,

What you are talking about is the reason I will not shoot my local matches. I drive 1.5 hours or 2.5 hours (depending on whether I'm shooting Elberton or Piedmont) to shoot because the rules at our local matches keep changing. The only thing consistant about the rules of our local matches is the changing of the rules.

Elberton County Gun Club runs really nice matches and they are about 1.5 hours from the house. I drive the 2.5 hours to Piedmont Gun Club because the competition is really tuff and they run registered IBS matches.

 

[mikecr]

Even IBS is ridiculous in rule weakness.
I seriously doubt half the shooters know their rules, much less take them seriously.

The allowance of 'tag teaming' is weak, and should have been disallowed in writing. In any event it is an advantage.
The 30br scoring advantage is weak, and could easily have been addressed with 'center of shots within' (as it always should have been).
There is weakness on single shot requirements, rest requirements, metal in stocks or bags, and electronics forward of the bench.
Officiating I notice is also pitiful and weak.

I don't compete. But if I did, I would make this condition painful to those not paying attention.
This would include shooters, clubs, and sanctioning.
It's the only way to affect change..

 

[FroggyOne2]

Shoot highpower instead.

 

[yat3b35]

Dave you know the club in question which will still not be mentioned by me. I too am a member of the club , and the last match is the first time I ever heard about not allowing two people to shoot the same rifle in any given match . Mater of fact we both shot the same rifle the first time my lady friend shot there , why were we not told of the ruling at that time , but waiting for us both to get very good scores ( good enough for either of us to win with ) ? The same club makes allowances for any shooter to have someone spot for them which is in my opinion is good. Hell we all need help from time to time to spot our shots. I'll obey any rule the club has as long as I know what they are!
My lady has only been shooting for 3 or 4 matches ! What a way to get someone new involved in our sport!

 

[fdshuster]

Froggy: Some of us, myself included were once very active in NRA High Power, but due to circumstances beyond our control ( try rhumitoid arthritis), are not able to compete in position matchs anymore. In my case, off-hand is still very doable, hence the Rifle Silhouette Matchs ( AAA & Master classes), but prone ( severe neck problems) and sitting ( lower back limitations) are out of the question. Benchrest Competition fills the need nicely. To each his own.

 

[Tozguy]

Unwritten rules are not rules in my book. In my first year of competition someone told me a certain 'thing' was not legal. I asked for the rule number. No one could tell me but everyone thought that this one fellow who was running the show had it all straight in his mind. I challenged him and said I will shoot as I understand the written rules and let you formally disqualify me if you can. I ended up finding out he couldn't read. He asked someone else to check the rules and that person couldn't find anything in the rule book. Never heard another word about it.
The lesson for me was to challenge those last minute 'rulings' that only show up if you win. Unfortunately that is part of SOME of the operations that we can encounter. When I see some experienced top shooters knowingly break the written rules it makes me that much more determined to not to sacrifice myself to someone else's whim.

 

[tripcrow]

John, I'm guessing something like this happened before and somebody forced the gents that had to decide these things to go by a past ruling. I'm sure they didn't just pull it out of their hats to screw you over. Them boys just ain't like that. Now if this happened to somebody else we know, I wouldn't be so sure.;-)

We shoot this week. Thursday and Saturday. We missed you last 2 shoots with your AC troubles and the hurricane. If you bring your sweetie, she can shoot Assisted Class so you can spot and coach her. I don't know why we're getting so few people that want to shoot Assisted. It is running 5 to 1 Unassisted. I thought a lot more people would like to buddy up and shoot as a team. Especially guys with bad eyes. But then 5 to 1 is about the same ratio as voted for no helping when St Tom voted to disallowed spotting and coaching help.

 

[yat3b35]

Dave as I said before , I will obey the clubs rules set forth to me , but when one rule is left out in left field for only a select few to know about , then it's not a very good rule. Rules should be put in writting for all to see and not to be brought up when two shooters are about to win or take second place in a match , and then be disqualified for using a single rifle for two people , or at least announce that rule before the match begins.

Bill , Betty and I will see you this Saturday if all goes well , but she doesn't need my help as she has learned quite rapidly with only a few matches shot this year. By the way she outshot me today at Hopewell all by herself with no help from anyone . John

 

[dreever]

John, Dave, and everyone,

I can sympathize with you to a point. However you must understand those dedicated individuals who serve on the various committees who make these match's possible are doing the best that they can. it's a thankless job always open to criticism, but with very few willing to make the commitment to serving on these committees and helping put on the matches. To serve on a match committee one must commit not only to writing and enforcing the rules but to commit to attending EVERY match to help make it happen. Everybody wants to shoot, but damn few want to get involved. Serving on a committee at these matches for five years I know of what I speak.
When Bill graciously took over the reins at Shippensburg he accepted this responsibility. He has to deal with the clubs B.O.D., attend and report at every club meeting, manage the books and money, make sure the range is mowed, inventory the targets, see to necessary range repairs, which includes getting the welding done, run the match, collect the money, calculate the prize payout, see that the target crew is doing OK, handle protests and complaints, and after all that still have time to try to shoot. Bill, Marty, and Gary Curfman are the three that make our match's happen. I don't include the other members of the committee because if they don't show up and help at every shoot in my opinion they are not really committed.
I don't write this to ruffle anyones feathers just to again reiterate that perhaps the guys involved in making these matches possible are doing the best that they can.

Danny

 

[Dgd6mm]

If it's not in WRITING it is nothing but BULLCRAP!

 

[FrankintheLaurelMts]

AND what about the extra shot that appeared on one of their targets....it was accepted as someones crossfire or sighter hit by the same people that you are critizing without a single question by the range master and the scorers, I assure anywhere else it would have counted as of their 5 hits and scored a zero! IF your going to start a war of words make sure you state all of the facts that are involved! And it has been done before many times, the advantage is that the second shooter does not have to heat their barrel up during the sight-in period.. Also make sure all you that are running your mouths line up next spring to become one of the officials at your local shoots...you can even become a target setter if you can't handle any of the other ones... also, mra, you started this thread, I assure I will read it from now and everythings on the table when you started to trash our shoot, funny how YOU never mentioned that so called crossfire or sighter hit that went in your favor.. As far as rules, ours are printed on the website and that one will be added in capital letters as a result of this misunderstanding.. this is one of the few matches that permits people to help one another, talk to each other, watch in your spotting scope whats going on and it was designed to be fun no pressure match..maybe some of you more serious types and professional rule lovers should stay away and do everyone a favor.. lighten-up already

 

[tripcrow]

Donald, it'd be nice if we could go by that. But it is impossible to get it all in writing and even if we did there'd still be how it was to be interpreted. Dave's example of closest to center is a good example. Is it center of shot or closest edge. None of the places I shoot at have it written down. Another example is what happens if a shot is fired after time is called. Do you throw out the whole target? The best shot? Do you take into account how close it was to time being called? How good the guy hears? How loud you called time? When you go to a shoot you're counting on the match director to decide stuff like this on the fly.

The only reason there was a shoot that John was at is because a group of guys volunteered to run it so it wouldn't shut down. There's no one individual in charge. Nobody wanted to have to be the guy that pisses somebody or somebodies off by having to make a decision like this. We need to understand this isn't like big league baseball. Not even if you consider in George Brett and his pine tar.

 

[bozo699]

John, Dave, and everyone,

I can sympathize with you to a point. However you must understand those dedicated individuals who serve on the various committees who make these match's possible are doing the best that they can. it's a thankless job always open to criticism, but with very few willing to make the commitment to serving on these committees and helping put on the matches. To serve on a match committee one must commit not only to writing and enforcing the rules but to commit to attending EVERY match to help make it happen. Everybody wants to shoot, but damn few want to get involved. Serving on a committee at these matches for five years I know of what I speak.
When Bill graciously took over the reins at Shippensburg he accepted this responsibility. He has to deal with the clubs B.O.D., attend and report at every club meeting, manage the books and money, make sure the range is mowed, inventory the targets, see to necessary range repairs, which includes getting the welding done, run the match, collect the money, calculate the prize payout, see that the target crew is doing OK, handle protests and complaints, and after all that still have time to try to shoot. Bill, Marty, and Gary Curfman are the three that make our match's happen. I don't include the other members of the committee because if they don't show up and help at every shoot in my opinion they are not really committed.
I don't write this to ruffle anyones feathers just to again reiterate that perhaps the guys involved in making these matches possible are doing the best that they can.

Danny

AND what about the extra shot that appeared on one of their targets....it was accepted as someones crossfire or sighter hit by the same people that you are critizing without a single question by the range master and the scorers, I assure anywhere else it would have counted as of their 5 hits and scored a zero! IF your going to start a war of words make sure you state all of the facts that are involved! And it has been done before many times, the advantage is that the second shooter does not have to heat their barrel up during the sight-in period.. Also make sure all you that are running your mouths line up next spring to become one of the officials at your local shoots...you can even become a target setter if you can't handle any of the other ones... also, mra, you started this thread, I assure I will read it from now and everythings on the table when you started to trash our shoot, funny how YOU never mentioned that so called crossfire or sighter hit that went in your favor.. As far as rules, ours are printed on the website and that one will be added in capital letters as a result of this misunderstanding.. this is one of the few matches that permits people to help one another, talk to each other, watch in your spotting scope whats going on and it was designed to be fun no pressure match..maybe some of you more serious types and professional rule lovers should stay away and do everyone a favor.. lighten-up already

Danny, and Frank,
It is nice to see the big picture and both sides of the story, we all to often jump to conclusions by only hearing part of a story or only seeing a particular part of the whole thing, myself included sometimes. In my club we have several guy's running things but ONE guy in particular basically has the whole thing on his shoulder, I really noticed this year he seemed really drained and not having nearly as much fun as last year or earlier this year, after reading Danny's post it really makes sense as to why now,...
Thanks for enlightening.
Wayne.

 

[WyleWD]

AND what about the extra shot that appeared on one of their targets....it was accepted as someones crossfire or sighter hit by the same people that you are critizing without a single question by the range master and the scorers, I assure anywhere else it would have counted as of their 5 hits and scored a zero!

Should have scored a Zero anywhere else is correct. Not to ruffle feathers here but if that rule was upheld and enforced, we could have all saved some keyboard time, not raised some blood pressures and created some hard feelings.

It is a shame that something like this happens and has to air out their differences on the net. Should have been handled in person in a business like and adult fashion. Hopefully the parties involved will see fit to work out their differences and continue enjoying the shooting sports as they were meant to in the first place. Im sure that the club wasn't founded just to have people squabbling all the time. Just my 2 cents worth. WD