Berger VLD, the saga continues..

[Glocksig]

Ok so I've got some 95 & 105 hunting VLDs that I wanted to load up for a long range deer kill permit. I'm shooting a GAP 6mm rem with a match chamber.

Problem number one was they don't fit the magazine. No big deal and partially expected. I figured I'd have to load them as singles anyway.

After reading the Berger load tips I knew I couldn't proceed safely without finding the lands in this gun. I knew they were way out there as I had used a cut case to reach them when loading my varmint rounds,80 g Bergers. Turns out the 80's shoot through one hole at mag length so I didn't proceed further at the time.)

So I Ordered a Hornady OAL gauge and the factory case wouldn't chamber. No big deal I'll send off my fired cases and have them make me a custom case. After three weeks I got it back and it wouldn't chamber. Wow talk about a tight chamber. No big deal I'll get a Sinclair seating depth gauge and do it that way.

Got the Sinclair gauge and wouldn't you know, it actually worked. Great now to the reloading bench.

I loaded up test batches of each, 24 rds each as suggested at the suggested depths.

I use my friends shop so when I got home I chambered some of the rounds, we'll tried to is more like it. None of them will chamber. Apparently seating them opened up the OD on my case necks enough that they won't chamber.

So here I sit, is all the aggravation worth it to shoot those sexy sleek bullets? I don't know, the 105 may not even work in my twist rate as it is,1 in 9) but those 95's would likely be sweet.

I guess the question now is, where do I go from here? I assume neck turning would be my only option here, which is a road I'm not altogether thrilled about going down.

Am I missing something?

Thanks

 

[Mudcat]

I dont think you got a bullet problem, you got a chamber 'problem'. Get your neck situation straight then test your bergers in 3-5 shot groups for a ladder test. You will quickly find what works well. Even mag length will probably shoot well, but I tend to just load mine at the optimum depth,usually 40 off or 20 in) and single load as I have yet to need a 2nd round on any deer I have shot with the Bergers.

Getting VLDs to shoot well aint hard.......

John

 

[Glocksig]

Is it correct to assume that I can't just size the necks smaller with a different bushing? I'm assuming that the bullet is going to expand the neck to the same diameter regardless of what the starting diameter is.

Can I keep the OD and reem out the inside diameter to give the bullet the clearance it needs?

 

[Mudcat]

I am a sling shooter, not benchrest, so you are going to have to ask one of the other guys as I have never turned a neck in my life.

John

 

[Preacher]

Any reason your scared of turning necks ????
Inside reaming will follow the hole even if it's off center......
Gather up a few of K&M's turning tools and have right at it to solve your problem...
Neck turning is not all that hard to do....

 

[CJ6]

Get some Cerro-safe and cast the chamber to find your dimensions.That will tell you what the neck Dia. is in your chamber. Then if needed you can if trim your necks to the proper dia. You may also call GAP and see if they know what neck dia your rifle was chambered with.

 

[HPMike800]

The diameter of a 6mm bullet is constant. If 80's chamber than 95's chamber assuming your not to long. Are you using the same brass? Do you have any fired unresized cases left to measure off? You may be misusing the Sinclair tool and setting the bullet to far out.

 

[Mudcat]

Any reason your scared of turning necks ????
Inside reaming will follow the hole even if it's off center......
Gather up a few of K&M's turning tools and have right at it to solve your problem...
Neck turning is not all that hard to do....

Who said I was scared of turning necks? I have a K&M neck turner, a Sinclair, etc, I just dont have a use for them...yet. I do have a rifle or two that will need it, but those rifles are just taking up space in a vault right now as I still have a bunch of sling shooting to do before I ever sit at a bench.

For HP use, I am after 1/2MOA, I can easily get that without ever turning a neck, so why bother? And, when youre shooting 88 shots or more per day in a match, who has time to neck turn as well as all the other stuff you gotta do to have ammo loaded and ready to go each weekend!?

Neck turning doesnt scare me, but the time it takes to do it does!

John

 

[Mudcat]

You may be misusing the Sinclair tool and setting the bullet to far out.

I would think that even if he is loading them too long, they are going to chamber anyhow cause unless his neck tension is insane, he is just going to push them into the case ala soft seating.

John

 

[glo]

I would have to agree with HPMike. It sounds like you’ve got a new lot of brass on your hands. The new lot of brass,even if bought at the same time as when you were shooting the 80’s) has thicker walls around the neck area. Neck thickness can be an issue as you move from sloppy, factory chambers to match and tight, custom chambers.

Neck turning is no big deal. I find it relaxing.

Okay, I’m a reloading geek.

But if you’re willing to put in an extra evening of case prep you’ll be okay.

If it turns out you do have a tight neck and you don’t want to turn necks, then the next best thing is the have a gunsmith ream you neck to a larger, factory neck diameter.

 

[Glocksig]

The prize goes to HPMike800 for his suggestion on misuse of the seating depth tool.:idea:

After much measuring and figuring I couldn't see how this thing wouldn't chamber rounds with similar neck diameter to other bullets I have. Then I bit the bullet and decided to put a little elbow grease into the bolt to see if I was really hitting the neck, tried it on all four groups and bam it closes. Pull the round out and you can see a rub mark on one side of the bullet, no mark on the neck. The amount of force necessary to chamber the round seemed more than I was willing to put forth the first time for fear of jamming a round in there.

Now the 64,000 dollar question, how in the hell could I have jammed the bullet that deep into the lands with barely a tap on the seating depth rod? Consider the following:

Batch one was to be loaded touching the lands. After extracting it left a rub mark 96 thousandths wide

Batch 2 was to be 40 thousandths deeper than Batch 1. This bullet showed a rub mark 50 thousandths wide.

Batch 3 was to be 40 thousandths deeper than Batch 2. This bullet showed a rub mark 29 thousandths wide.

Finally Batch 4 was to be 40 thousandths deeper than Batch 3 and showed no rub mark at all.

I'd say this means my lands are somewhere between Batch 4 and Batch 3. Being that deep in the lands I don't know how it didn't pull the damn bullet out altogether. I mean if the rub marks are any indicator I'm .175 into the lands? Really? With the amount of force it took to open the bolt I don't see how this is possible. When measuring I dislodged the bullet from the bore by droppin a .204 bullet down the muzzle. Each time it dropped out without a hiccup. How can this be?

Should I try remeasuring with the rifle on it's muzzle so gravity is the only force on the rod contacting the base of the bullet?

 

[Glocksig]

Any tips on using the Sinclair Seating Depth gauge?

 

[Mudcat]

I use a Stoney Point rather than a Sinclair, but I assume they work about the same. When I use mine, I push on the road with one finger and just hard enough that the bullet usually sticks in the lands and I need to poke it out with a cleaning rod. I usually get pretty consistent readings though I am to the point know that I only measure once or twice, 3x at most as they are usually spot on and I have found that the VLDs just arent as picky about seating depth as some folks say. Try the ladder test and you will see what I mean.

John

 

[rayfromtx]

Anytime you shoot but especially if you are jamming the bullets or case shoulders in a way that causes effort when closing the bolt, use bolt grease to avoid galling the lugs of your bolt and action. This is very important and will cause a doh moment if you forget and mess up your lugs. If anyone doesn't know what I mean, find out.

 

[Glocksig]

Copy that on the grease, they're done up pretty well. I need to mess with this thing some more and maybe ream out the neck of the horandy gauge so I have something to check against. PTG was nice enough to send me the blue print for the reamer used in my gun which has all the necessary measurements of my chamber. It shows the throat and lead, some simple math should get me close..

incidentally the neck diamter is 2.733, which is probably dead on as fired cases come out at .272

 

[Glocksig]

I've got to try it again, Basically I dropped the bullet into the bore, turned the rifle horizontal and just touched the base with the rod, I'm just shocked that the bullet can be that deep with virtually no pressue on the base of the bullet. It's messing me up because what I'm thinking is just touching is actually well into the lands.

 

[HPMike800]

Mr Sig:

Since your were so far off at the beginning of this I assumed you were using the stop collars wrong. There are offsets in the collars so use them just like the photos in the directions. Make sure the guide stays put the same throughout. I get about 0.002' - 0.005' variation when I use my tool. That is good for me as I always jamb a minimum of 0.010' or jump a minim of 0.025'. Make sure the chamber is clean and I clean and lightly oil the fired case I'm using.

Another trick I have heard is to cut a couple of slices into the neck so it barely holds the bullet and then use Lynn's stripped bolt closing to find the length to the lands.

 

[Glocksig]

Nope collars are as pictured. I got the stuff back so I'll fool with it. I since got a blueprint of my chamber which shows the lead at 2.3608 and the throat at 2.5612. I found a nosler 80 g that I stuck in a fired case cut with a jewelers saw and that measueres 2.378. That would put it .01 into the throat which would make sense..