Berger manual question

[Ed333]

I am sure it tells me somewhere in the new Berger ReLoading manual, and I just haven't found it yet, but can someone tell me the significance of the order in which the different powders are listed for a given calibre/bullet? Is it burning rate, fastest to slowest? Doesn't seem to always check out. Grains per load? and if so, why select that parameter, for economy? Anyone else do it that way?
Confused at the bench...I do like the manual, although I notice some of the max loads listed seem lighter than I have seen mentioned on forum.

 

[Boisblancboy]

I have the manual and never put any thought as to how the powders were listed. So no help to you there. But I do agree that a lot of their max loads are on the very conservative side.

 

[Kingfisher]

Just got the book a few weeks ago. If I read the details right, I think the reason they're on the conservative side is because they didn't actually do the load development using pressure barrels etc. it was all done via computer modeling.

 

[Shynloco]

Guys,
Glad to see Berger FINALLY got a manual out for their bullets. But it would be very difficult for me to believe, especially knowing what I know about Walt Berger and his company, that any of their products would have load information based upon a computer model. He's a serious hands on shooter and a computerized performance model is simply NOT his style. And as for being conservative on loads recommendations, I can't think of any reloading manual that doesn't stay on the conservative side of loads simply because of the civil liability that attaches if you follow their recommended loads and they don't want to be buying you a new gun or paying your medical bills.

Alex

 

[T257]

Bought the manual last weekend, can't comment on the powder listings, but the loads are very conservative. I already have loads worked up for several rifles using Bergers and I'm over on every load that I've check.

 

[Webster]

I just got my Berger Manual. It would be nice if they listed more powders for each cartridge. No 30BR or 338 data. No data on old cartridges like the 218 BEE. The first 250 pages are just stories about the company, hunting trips and general reloading info. My guess is they use a electronic strain gauge on the barrel for determining pressure. I sent Berger an E-mail to ask how they determine pressure. I never go above published max loads. I know they may be conservative.

My 6BR with 68 gr bullets and 29.0 GR of H322 I get 3315 fps, several manuals publish about 30 gr max. I try to load for accuracy near the max load with a powder the is listed as giving higher velocity. I don't see any reason for more speed. Most of my shoots at GH are under 300 yrds.

 

[firearmdoc1]

I don't have the Berger manual,but could they be listed by load density from highest to lowest? Just a thought.

 

[Webster]

It doesn't matter how they are listed. They are what they are.

 

[Ed333]

I don't think it is by load density, because they list the fill percentage (I guess they are making an assumption as to which case is being used), and these are not in a lineal progression. I finally went to the Berger Bullets site, and asked them, I will post what the answer is.

As to 'they are what they are', I have been using only Varget, and would kind of like to know what I am getting into if I were to shift to another powder, what I might be gaining or losing. Maybe only trial and error will tell me that, but if i can learn from the trial and error of others, that would be nice.....

 

[Ed333]

Here is the question I posed to Berger:

I have been enjoying your new reloading manual, but one question, how is the listing order of the various powders arranged on each page? Seems to be by # of grains per starting load and max load, in ascending order, not by burning rate, or at least that is what seems to check out after sampling a few. If so, can you tell me the reason for listing them that way, is it for economy in powder use?

and the answer from Berger Bullets:

That is correct, we list it based on max load number ascending from lowest to highest. For the most part this makes them listed from fastest to slowest burning powder, but there are exceptions that were made by Walt that cause numbers to fall out of place. These were all decisions that were made on case to case basis and I am honestly not sure what the reasoning behind the sorting order was beyond that.

 

[JeffG]

That's great, thanks for going right to the source for us...but what exactly does "max load number ascending form lowest to highest" mean? (nevermind, I should have read your question better, "max load" = as measured by charge weight)

I have the manual, and the few loads I have chronoed to compare are 5-7%, (one was 10%,) lower than Berger's speed range.

I think I remember reading in the introduction that they used computer modeling to fill out some of the lists.

 

[Webster]

You cannot determine what will shoot well in your rifle by charge weight, density or burn rate. You have to try them in your rifle with the bullet you choose to shoot. I assume all of the powders listed in the manual were chosen because they are suitable, some are hard to find in local stores. Since I shoot a 6BR for GH hunting. I look in the 6BR load suggestions list on this website under 6BR and see what powder they are using in serious competition. Then I try the 3 that give the highest velocity. H322 and Varget give me good velocity and accuracy. H322 gives the highest fps of anything I have tried and I think I can still go about 1 grain more. 8202 is also good in my rifle but a little less fps. Just about all of the other powders are about 100 fps slower by my chronograph. H322 seems to give high velocity in most of the published data for many small cartridges. I have tried VV133, VV135, 8208, Varget, H322 and probably a few others. 6PPC shooters use a lot of VV133 but it gives low velocity in my rifle. VV135 is the only powder I get signs of pressure in my rifle below published max loads. The search for great loads isn't always inexpensive. I have spent a lot of money on powder, primers, bullets, dies and micrometers for a hunting rifle. The hard part for me is to improve my shooting skills. The rifle shoots better than my ability.

 

[JeffG]

I was under the impression that higher load density (95% - 100%) of case capacity was preferable to lower load density (80-85%)
...although I've never tested it, just always went to the higher density choice, thinking less air space created a more controlled burn.

 

[Webster]

I think the combustion of the powder is very complex. You cannot go just by load density. Are you casual BR shooting or varmint hunting? The bottom line is you try several powders and use what gives you the best groups and the velocity you want. If you were a serious BR shooter I don't think you would ask these questions. I think you are correct to a point about density.

From the Berger Reload Manual
For the 6PPC N133 is very popular powder used by serious BR competitors it has a 108% fill ratio. I think IMR 4198 is also used by a lesser number of competitors. 4198 has a 94% fill ratio.

What I would do for starters is on the opening page of this website on the left side of the page click on the icon for the caliber of your cartridge. Scroll down to recommended loads. These are all loads submitted by very good shooters and they gave very small groups. They are probably using bench rest quality barrels (not factory barrels). For the 223 Remington ten powders are listed. The best powder varies somewhat based on bullet weight. You can buy 22 bullets from 40 to 90 gr. a huge range for a little bullet. Pick one or two powders that are suitable for your cartridge and bullet weight. I would tend to pick powders that gave higher velocity. Make a list of powders you like and go to your local shooter supply store and see what's available. Buy one or two powders and try them.

With a hunting type rifle it takes a lot of skill to shoot groups that represent what the rifle can do. How still can you hold the rifle, good trigger control. Make a sketch of where the cross-hair was on the target when the gun went off and wear the bullet hit. If you cannot call your shoots, see the cross hair on the target when the gun went of you are flinching. Relate your notes to things like, did you flinch, poor trigger pull, wind shift ect. This will speed up your learning on how to shoot accurately.