Berger bullet for FTR
- Thread starter gsg5pk
- Start date
It's interesting you say that Rick! (Actually, I agree with a personal reservation or two.) Ballistically, the answer is whatever:
(a) has the lowest i7 'form factor' value (ie design that gives the lowest airdrag when compared to the G7 reference projectile shape or 'form'). ...... allied to
(b) highest bullet weight (strictly speaking, sectional density). Two bullets with the same i7 value but of different weights and fired at equivalent speeds (identical ME produced), always sees the heavier model suffer less wind drift.
(c) best suits the cartridge, barrel, and chamber in terms of precision and MV within acceptable pressures.
Taking (a) and (b), the 215gn Hybrid is inevitably the clear 'winner' from the OP's list given its staggeringly low 0.910 i7 value (9% lower draq than the G7 reference) compared to 0.988 for the 155.5gn BT Fullbore, 0.953 for the 168gn Hybrid, 0.999 for the 175gn LRBT, and 0.985 for the 185gn Juggernaut. Add in the weight / SD and whichever way you run it, it must move less in the wind at equivalent speeds.
Well, so much for the 'hard facts'. The trend in recent years is for people to concentrate heavily on the ballistics given QuickLOAD and Bryan's material, PM ballistic solver programs, the excellent Berger website ballistics program and so on. We can all play at being armchair ballistics experts now, never going near a range.
BUT ........ if the bullet doesn't perform in your barrel, or it produces more recoil and torque than you're happy with, the value of its comparative external ballistics' superiority are devalued. Then there is the 'flexibility issue'. Throat the barrel for a modern long 155 seated shallowly in the case and you can happily use every bullet design on the market up to 185/190gn levels, even the Berger 210gn LRBT seated a tad on the deep side. I know more UK FTR competitors with this set-up than the rest put together. Whilst many top US competitors might load the 185gn Berger Juggernaut as the default in this scenario, it tends to be the 155.5 here with 210gn LRBT for rough conditions.
Choose the 215 or 230 and you produce a one, or two-bullet rifle, the throat so long it degrades performance with almost everything else. If you can't get these to shoot in your barrel, you're stuffed! (Been there, got that tee shirt!) Or, if the gun handling with uber-heavies doesn't suit your shooting style, you're also stuffed!
Shooting off Dan Pahlobel's FLEX-bipod (fantastic design that far too many people write off as impractical without even trying one) and a really stiff and heavy Gator rear bag packed with Chromite heavy sand, I've gone full circle from 155s to 210 and the 215 Hybrid and back again. I've sold every bullet that weighed more than 190gn and generally either shoot the 155.5gn BT or 168gn Hybrid. I can feel the extra gun movement and torque going up from 155 at 3,050 to the 168 at ~2,900. The latter has become my 'heavy' (and a superb shooter it is too if you can tune its load and jump, a bit 'picky', I've found), but the 155.5gn is the default choice for me. Another individual with different kit and shooting style will likely come to different conclusions.
I was one of the first GB shooters to adopt the 185 Juggernaut, back when not even that many US shooters knew much about it. (Happy days - shooter ignorance meant that they were actually in stock most of the time, not like recent times!) My experience was that at ~2,800 fps MV and in a 10" twist barrel, it held 1,000 yard elevations in rough conditions better than anything else I've used in 308. I love the 185's performance, but am aware of the extra recoil over the 155/168, so rarely use it these days.
These are tuneability / shootability issues. There is another factor that the ballistics print-outs can't tell you about. Assuming you've got the terminal velocity needed at the longest range you shoot over (1.2 MACH) and the wind drift figures are at least reasonable, I don't think every bullet performs equally well at 1,000 yards. There seem to be intangible factors (not very scientific I know), that see design A work out better than design B - or vice versa - despite what the armchair ballistics and loads planning says will happen.
I reckon that every now and then, only once or twice in a generation even, an outstanding design appears that performs better 'than it should' or suits more actual on the range conditions more of the time, and/or suits more velocity and twist rate combinations than comparable models. 30 odd years ago it was the 155gn Sierra, the original 'Palma' #2155. Today, it's the 155.5gn Berger Fullbore and 185gn Juggernaut. The 200 or 215gn Hybrids may or may not turn out to be outstanding all-rounders too, but I can't speak from personal experience. Although I see a few individuals doing really well with them, it is only a few. That of course is in the conditions we see in the UK - shoot at Phoenix AZ and see 10 mph plus crosswind shifts between shots and I'd likely be building a rifle for the 230gn Hybrid!
So, for advice to a begginer FTR shooter, I'd say start with the 155.5 and get it to group really well with small ES / SD values at 3,050 fps of higher MVs and/or the Juggernaut at 2,750 fps minimum, better still ~2,800-2,825 fps. How this pair fit in with a 0.170" FB chamber? Not a clue - I tell my gunsmith, a personal friend and fellow 'Effer', that I want my usual set-up to shoot both 155s and the Juggernaut, and I've no idea what the actual FB value is.
(a) has the lowest i7 'form factor' value (ie design that gives the lowest airdrag when compared to the G7 reference projectile shape or 'form'). ...... allied to
(b) highest bullet weight (strictly speaking, sectional density). Two bullets with the same i7 value but of different weights and fired at equivalent speeds (identical ME produced), always sees the heavier model suffer less wind drift.
(c) best suits the cartridge, barrel, and chamber in terms of precision and MV within acceptable pressures.
Taking (a) and (b), the 215gn Hybrid is inevitably the clear 'winner' from the OP's list given its staggeringly low 0.910 i7 value (9% lower draq than the G7 reference) compared to 0.988 for the 155.5gn BT Fullbore, 0.953 for the 168gn Hybrid, 0.999 for the 175gn LRBT, and 0.985 for the 185gn Juggernaut. Add in the weight / SD and whichever way you run it, it must move less in the wind at equivalent speeds.
Well, so much for the 'hard facts'. The trend in recent years is for people to concentrate heavily on the ballistics given QuickLOAD and Bryan's material, PM ballistic solver programs, the excellent Berger website ballistics program and so on. We can all play at being armchair ballistics experts now, never going near a range.
BUT ........ if the bullet doesn't perform in your barrel, or it produces more recoil and torque than you're happy with, the value of its comparative external ballistics' superiority are devalued. Then there is the 'flexibility issue'. Throat the barrel for a modern long 155 seated shallowly in the case and you can happily use every bullet design on the market up to 185/190gn levels, even the Berger 210gn LRBT seated a tad on the deep side. I know more UK FTR competitors with this set-up than the rest put together. Whilst many top US competitors might load the 185gn Berger Juggernaut as the default in this scenario, it tends to be the 155.5 here with 210gn LRBT for rough conditions.
Choose the 215 or 230 and you produce a one, or two-bullet rifle, the throat so long it degrades performance with almost everything else. If you can't get these to shoot in your barrel, you're stuffed! (Been there, got that tee shirt!) Or, if the gun handling with uber-heavies doesn't suit your shooting style, you're also stuffed!
Shooting off Dan Pahlobel's FLEX-bipod (fantastic design that far too many people write off as impractical without even trying one) and a really stiff and heavy Gator rear bag packed with Chromite heavy sand, I've gone full circle from 155s to 210 and the 215 Hybrid and back again. I've sold every bullet that weighed more than 190gn and generally either shoot the 155.5gn BT or 168gn Hybrid. I can feel the extra gun movement and torque going up from 155 at 3,050 to the 168 at ~2,900. The latter has become my 'heavy' (and a superb shooter it is too if you can tune its load and jump, a bit 'picky', I've found), but the 155.5gn is the default choice for me. Another individual with different kit and shooting style will likely come to different conclusions.
I was one of the first GB shooters to adopt the 185 Juggernaut, back when not even that many US shooters knew much about it. (Happy days - shooter ignorance meant that they were actually in stock most of the time, not like recent times!) My experience was that at ~2,800 fps MV and in a 10" twist barrel, it held 1,000 yard elevations in rough conditions better than anything else I've used in 308. I love the 185's performance, but am aware of the extra recoil over the 155/168, so rarely use it these days.
These are tuneability / shootability issues. There is another factor that the ballistics print-outs can't tell you about. Assuming you've got the terminal velocity needed at the longest range you shoot over (1.2 MACH) and the wind drift figures are at least reasonable, I don't think every bullet performs equally well at 1,000 yards. There seem to be intangible factors (not very scientific I know), that see design A work out better than design B - or vice versa - despite what the armchair ballistics and loads planning says will happen.
I reckon that every now and then, only once or twice in a generation even, an outstanding design appears that performs better 'than it should' or suits more actual on the range conditions more of the time, and/or suits more velocity and twist rate combinations than comparable models. 30 odd years ago it was the 155gn Sierra, the original 'Palma' #2155. Today, it's the 155.5gn Berger Fullbore and 185gn Juggernaut. The 200 or 215gn Hybrids may or may not turn out to be outstanding all-rounders too, but I can't speak from personal experience. Although I see a few individuals doing really well with them, it is only a few. That of course is in the conditions we see in the UK - shoot at Phoenix AZ and see 10 mph plus crosswind shifts between shots and I'd likely be building a rifle for the 230gn Hybrid!
So, for advice to a begginer FTR shooter, I'd say start with the 155.5 and get it to group really well with small ES / SD values at 3,050 fps of higher MVs and/or the Juggernaut at 2,750 fps minimum, better still ~2,800-2,825 fps. How this pair fit in with a 0.170" FB chamber? Not a clue - I tell my gunsmith, a personal friend and fellow 'Effer', that I want my usual set-up to shoot both 155s and the Juggernaut, and I've no idea what the actual FB value is.
The 185 truly is a "century" bullet! It is so easy to tune and delivers excellent results. Recoil is manageable as well.
I started F class mid range with 223. When I built my first 308, the ballistics charts and the "on paper" ideas blinded me with the heavies!
I built a rifle based on 215's seated .060 from the neck junction. New rifle, new bipod, inexperience and it was a disaster. Loaded some 185's up seated very long and they were under a 1/2 moa at 100. I went up a class last year and learned a lot. Had a load I was finally confident in and just concentrated on wind and handling techniques.
Went back this winter and revisited the heavy loads. With good gun handling skills now and experience on this gun, I shot some real good groups.
If you throat for 215's, the 185 is the lightest you can use and still seat a bullet. Their is less than one caliber of bullet seating depth for the 185 but it shoots phenomenaly!
Looking back, I am glad I throated the barrel this long so I can move up in weight, but would never advice someone starting out to shoot the heavies first.
I started F class mid range with 223. When I built my first 308, the ballistics charts and the "on paper" ideas blinded me with the heavies!
I built a rifle based on 215's seated .060 from the neck junction. New rifle, new bipod, inexperience and it was a disaster. Loaded some 185's up seated very long and they were under a 1/2 moa at 100. I went up a class last year and learned a lot. Had a load I was finally confident in and just concentrated on wind and handling techniques.
Went back this winter and revisited the heavy loads. With good gun handling skills now and experience on this gun, I shot some real good groups.
If you throat for 215's, the 185 is the lightest you can use and still seat a bullet. Their is less than one caliber of bullet seating depth for the 185 but it shoots phenomenaly!
Looking back, I am glad I throated the barrel this long so I can move up in weight, but would never advice someone starting out to shoot the heavies first.
Im currently shooting the 215's and am struggling in the 2nd and 3rd relay. Over 60 shots they just beat the sh!t out of you. Build the gun heavy if you go that route.
Keith Glasscock
Gold $$ Contributor
I've shot all of them at one time or another. I've settled into a comfortable spot. I shoot the 155.5 fullbore at mid range and will be shooting the 185 LRBT for long range.
200's are good, but the increased recoil makes it more difficult to shoot well. The 215's actually shot better than the 200's for wind, but the increased recoil over the 200's actually reduced my scores and gave me a headache.
I've found 185's to be the heaviest bullet that I can reliably shoot 80 shots a day, day in and day out.
200's are good, but the increased recoil makes it more difficult to shoot well. The 215's actually shot better than the 200's for wind, but the increased recoil over the 200's actually reduced my scores and gave me a headache.
I've found 185's to be the heaviest bullet that I can reliably shoot 80 shots a day, day in and day out.
The 185 is a very good all round bullet and it can shoot very precisely, but I do think once you get into the 185s you need a good stock, rear bag and bipod as IMO you are starting to move into recoil sensitivity territory. The 185 is also very easy to keep transonic and have an accurate load. In my neck of the woods pretty much anything above 2720 is GTG. I have found 185 class bullets running in 2750+ to be hard on primer pockets.
The 155s will teach you a lot about the wind, but you will have to hang in there as most guys I know that aren't overly experienced (3 yrs or less) can do ok with a 155 out to 600 then they start to taper with a dramatic fall at 1000. From what I have seen the drop in points doesn't appear as dramatic with a 185 bullet.
FWIW this is my first season in FTR .308 and 185s, having come from FO and a 6mm. Initially the recoil was a kick in the pants and definitely difficult to manage on a bench (relative to a 6mm) I have found adjusting to it for F-class comps no problem.
One thing I would say is take one load and get to know it really well.
Good luck
The 155s will teach you a lot about the wind, but you will have to hang in there as most guys I know that aren't overly experienced (3 yrs or less) can do ok with a 155 out to 600 then they start to taper with a dramatic fall at 1000. From what I have seen the drop in points doesn't appear as dramatic with a 185 bullet.
FWIW this is my first season in FTR .308 and 185s, having come from FO and a 6mm. Initially the recoil was a kick in the pants and definitely difficult to manage on a bench (relative to a 6mm) I have found adjusting to it for F-class comps no problem.
One thing I would say is take one load and get to know it really well.
Good luck
Va Jim
Gold $$ Contributor
Laurie
You have a gift being able to explain everything the way you do. I always look forward to reading your replies. Only one other thing I would add is pick one bullet and go with that, you cant go wrong with 155/185. 200's are not nearly as easy to tune. I start to see the recoil above 200.
Va Jim
You have a gift being able to explain everything the way you do. I always look forward to reading your replies. Only one other thing I would add is pick one bullet and go with that, you cant go wrong with 155/185. 200's are not nearly as easy to tune. I start to see the recoil above 200.
Va Jim
Down South
FTR Junkie
Of the bullets listed in the original post i'd shoot the 185s and not look back, they are a great bullet and very easy to work up a load. With that said, i shoot 200s mostly now as they shoot just as accurately in my rifle and definately have a wind advantage at all yardages. Recoil is more than the 185s but not bad by any means. I shot 215s in several matches with good success but the WTF shot at times vertically made me leave them.
I have always given the advice to new shooters to shoot 155.5 for their first year to learn to read the wind. When you shoot, look and analyze what the wind is doing to your shot placement. After a year you will be able to see the small changes in the wind and mirage and when you switch to the heavier bullets it will be more forgiving.
Real men shoot .223's
185 LRBT. I think my rifle shoots them better than the 185 Hybrid but still working on that load some
What twist rate were you using?
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
He’s probably shot out 4 barrels since that was posted in 2015, and likely shoots 200s these days; however, the 185s will stabilize fine from anything 1:12 or faster. Most folks had gone to 1:10 tubes by 2015
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