• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.

Berger bullet failure test

First I want to thank Mid Tompkins for doing so much to make this test possible. Without him it would not have happened. Also I want to thank Sherri Hurd and Michelle Gallagher for their part in putting 950 shots down range using a 6.5X284 in a little over 6 hours. You both earned those sore shoulders.

On January 3rd at Ben Avery Shooting Facility in Phoenix, AZ we,in my opinion) solved the bullet failure issue. We conducted a test during which 220 Berger 6.5mm 140 gr VLD made with regular J4 jackets were fired in two different barrels. After these rounds were fired we shot another 220 rounds of Berger 6.5mm 140 gr VLD made with thicker J4 jackets. The results were interesting to say the least.

Two barrels that had been provided by Krieger were chambered by Mid Tompkins. These barrels were put on two F-Class rifles,Mid's and Bob Mead's). A front rest, rear bag and shooting mat were used in shooting these rifles F-Class style.

Mid and Michelle spent much of the holidays loading the 950 rounds shot during this test. The ammo was loaded in Lapua cases with 49.5 gr of H4350.

Present during the test were Mid Tompkins, Michelle Gallagher, Sherri Hurd, Jeremy Hurd, Bob Jones, Alan Elliot, Walt Berger and I. We made sure that for each shot there were at least two people watching through spotting scopes. All shots were documented.

The goal was to shoot all the rounds in highly abusive conditions and then observe if the bullets would fail. We did not alter the barrels or the load in an attempt to create failures on purpose. These barrels and loads were in every way in the same condition when we started as any combination would be on match day.

The procedure used for this test was to fire 20 rounds with one rifle then quickly switch to the other rifle. We would shoot all 220,in each barrel) of the regular jacket bullets first then shoot all 220 of the thicker jackets. This course of fire was meant to duplicate match type strings and the rapid firing was to produce the harshest conditions possible for the bullets.

As you can imagine the barrels were very hot to the touch once we got through the first few strings of 20 shots. They would remain hot for the rest of the day.

We started with the .257 barrel first. We were not testing barrels so observations made about the barrels are secondary to the focus of the test. I mention this because I predicted that the .257 bore diameter would produce fewer failures since it was larger than the .256 bore diameter. I was proven wrong.

The .257 bore diameter barrel produced the first bullet failure at shot 106. The .256 bore diameter barrel produced its first bullet failure at shot 151. Even more interesting was the fact that the .257 barrel produced a total of 27 failures,with regular jacket bullets) right up to the last shot. The .256 barrel produced only 12 failures and stopped producing failures when the barrel was cleaned after shot 180. 40 shots were fired after both barrels were cleaned.

Now for the good news. After we finished shooting the bullets made with regular jackets we switched to the thicker jackets. Again both barrels shot 220 each by shooting a string of 20 and then switching to the other rifle. ALL 220 BULLETS MADE WITH THICKER J4 JACKETS,IN BOTH BARRELS) MADE IT TO THE IMPACT BERM.

So that we did not destroy one of Mid's target frames the scopes were adjusted so that we could aim on a target but the bullets would hit the impact area of the next target. At the beginning of the thick jacket shooting we did shoot one 10 shot string on the target. The results were a 12 oclock 6 due to scope adjustment, 8-Xs and 1-10,string shot by Michelle G.) Accuracy was not the focus of this test but it looked good for ten shots,once we got the scope adjusted).

To verify that something had not changed in the barrel for the thicker bullets we shot another 20 bullets made on the regular jackets in the .257 barrel after the thicker jacket shooting was completed. 9 out of 20 shots fired did not make it to the berm.

Another interesting result was that while we were shooting the thicker jacketed bullets both barrels produced several blown primers. The .257 barrel produced 14 blown primers and the .256 barrel produced 5. There were no blown primers while shooting the regular jacket bullets. We did chronograph five shots using regular bullets at a MV range of 2,996 to 3,024 fps. The chronograph was not working later in the day so we could not check the MV produced when shooting the thicker jacket bullets.

We continued shooting after thoroughly cleaning the .257 barrel using moly coated bullets made with regular jackets. 50 rounds were fired with 14 failures. It is my opinion that the abuse this barrel had experienced does not allow for an appropriate testing of the effectiveness of moly. These bullets were shot mostly out of curiosity. It is certainly clear that moly is not a cure all for bullet failure however I still believe that it helps reduce friction which is the cause of these bullet failures.

It is my conclusion that bullets made with thicker jackets are more capable of sustaining significantly higher levels of abuse before producing a failure. We are gong to do this same test again but this time we will use Bartlein barrels. The purpose again is not to test the barrels but to focus on the results produced by using jackets of different thicknesses.

Even though we are going to conduct another test we are already working on the production of a full line of VLD-THICK bullets in 6.5mm, 6mm, 22 cal and 7mm which will be specifically meant for target competition shooters. I will attempt to attach a detailed report of the specifics of the test.

Regards,
Eric
 

Attachments

Eric

Excellent report!

Just a few comments:

1. When the regular bullets started to fail, the test barrels must have been searing hot, even at the beginning of the firing the string involved. When I look at the time periods the prior 20 shot strings were fired in,only a few minutes in most cases), and how little time there was in between the prior strings for cool down time ,very little), I don't see how the barrels could have been other than very very hot. My question to you is do you think this was playing a part in the failure of the bullets?

2. The other issue for me is, that as time went on, and the way you were shooting the barrels, the throats on those barrels and probably 8" to 10" up the barrel must have become pretty degraded in terms of their condition. Needless to say, I would venture to say those barrels were toast,literally and figuratively) at the end of the day, and undoubtedly in rather degraded condition well before the end of the day, and maybe even near the time failures started to occur. A view of the barrels through a bore scope when failures started to occur would have been interesting and may have revealed a lot,i.e. maybe the barrels were already in surprisingly degraded condition). I would love to know what part that played in the bullet failures. It seems that by the time you got to trying out moly, the barrels were so bad it did not seem to matter, yet the thicker jackets were still hanging tough. Am I wrong on this?

3. On the blown primer issue, it is interesting because in my testing of the 6mmAR I have noticed that, with the same powder charge and primer, pressures seemed to run higher with the Sierra 107's vs any of the Berger 105 - 108 gr bullets. I always felt this was as a result of the thicker jackets of the Sierra bullets. It seems to me the blown primers you were experiencing is directly in line with my test results,i.e. thicker jacket = more pressure to get bullet to be pushed through the lands).

Thanks again for that report.

Robert Whitley
 
Robert,

I agree with your thoughts on the condition of the barrel. It was our specific intension to shoot fast so that we created as harsh a condition as possible,high barrel temp). The idea behind this is that if the bullets could take this high level of abuse then under typical match condition they will not fail. I believe our rapid course of fire played a major role in the failure of the regular jacket bullets.

We went further with the barrel inspection than you suggest. An inspection with the bore scope shows checking at the throat. I have not inspected many barrels so I will not offer my opinion of the condition of this barrel based on my inspection. This aspect of the test is important so we had the barrels cut in half down the length using a wire EDM so that the bore can be thoroughly inspected. These half pieces will be shipped to Krieger today so that they can provide an expert analysis.

I also agree with your opinion about the moly test. I believe that by the time we had completed the regular and thick jacket testing the barrel used to shoot the moly bullets was in such poor condition that moly would not have been capable of reducing the friction enough to avoid failure.

I decided to shoot the moly for two reasons. First, I wanted to confirm the fact that moly is not a cure all for eliminating bullet failure. I know moly helps by reducing friction but if the bore is not properly maintained the shooter can still experience failures. Second, these moly bullets were made with the regular jackets. Further evidence of bullet failures with these jackets supports our observations. I believe the more data the better. This is the reason why we are going to do this test again.

The blown primer result was unexpected. I believe that if we had a working chronograph the measured MV would indicate a change in pressure,producing a change in velocity). This is an assumption on my part but it seems logical. The fact that a thicker jacket influences the amount of heat realized by the core must also mean that the thicker jackets have some influence on changing the pressures created as the building gas pushing the bullet through the barrel. This is specualtion and I look forward to the next test and having a working chronograph so we can take some measurements.

Regards,
Eric
 
Great test Eric. If I may add some of my experiences...

I too have found that thicker jacketed bullets handle abusive bores better then thinner jacketed bullets.

I had a 30cal barrel that would religiously destroy bullets. The only bullet that survived were moly coated 220gr MK. Now these bullets also blew up when fouling was high.

It needed to be cleaned between 17 and 20rds. Once cleaned, it shot wonderfully.

I ran some molied 208gr Amax bullets through a clean bore and it ate them quite quickly. I feel that the Amax has a much thinner jacket then the 220gr MK. Sorry, but no Bergers were tested.

My conclusion, like yours, was thicker jacketed bullets helps to survive a bullet eating barrel. Moly will help but marginally. Cleaning is critical to eliminate failures but doesn't always make a barrel more accurate.

I suspect that the 'larger' bored barrel fouled faster then the smaller bore thus leading to more failures.

Also, pushing a thicker jacketed bullet down the bore will increase pressures substantially. If running near max with a thin jacket, blowing primers while shooting thicker jacketed bullets would not surprise me.

We just have to look at how much loads have to be reduced to fire Barnes X bullets. They don't compress anywhere near as much as lead cored bullets.

So the questions for me are: Are the failures linked to increased heat into the cores causing that to fail? Is getting the barrel super hot the main cause of failure? ie if the barrel was kept cool, the thin jacketed bullets would not fail no matter the rd count.

Are the failures linked to fouling constricting the bores which distorts the jackets more leading to structural failure? A dirty barrel will eat bullets whether barrel was cool or hot.

Can thicker jacketed bullets shoot as well as thin jacketed bullets? Can they be shot with higher muzzle velocity?

Jerry
 
Tom,

None that are more than speculation. It could be related to surface finish or there might be something related to how much the bullet is supported by the groove area. Mid measured the land heights to be the same which means the groove diameter on the .257 bore would be .2650.

I do not know what this means in relation to bullet failure. The barrels are shipping to Krieger today so that they can offer an experts opinion. They or I will share what is learned upon their inspection.

Jerry,

Thank you for sharing your experiences. I strongly believe that the majority of bullet failures are caused by the core melting,partially or completely due to heat from friction as the bullet moves through the barrel. Depending on the amount of "melting" that occurs a bullet can fail hundreds of yards down range or within feet of the muzzle,we observed both).

It is also likely that in some cases the bullet can make it to the target even though slight melting of the core has occured. If there is such a thing as core slippage I believe it is due to slight core melting rather than a solid core actually sliding around inside the bullet jacket.

Getting the barrel hot certainly contributed to getting the bullet hotter. In fact there were a few cases when we let a cartridge rest inside the chamber. The bullets fired in these situations nearly always failed.

Keeping the barrel cool can be a partial solution as any friction,heat) reduction step can reduce or eliminate bullet failures. Keep in mind that the vast majority of the Bergers make it to the target just fine. It is those extreme and rare situations where bullets are failing. Since this result can be incredibly frustrating we are working to eliminate it no matter what the shooter does. It is clear to me that the thicker jacket is a strong step in the right direction.

Anything that increases friction and/or heat will increase the likelihood of bullet failure,in any brand). Steps taken to reduce friction or to avoid a higher friction scenario,like poor cleaning practices) are strongly recommended. Several months ago I posted a report that provides friction reduction options. If anyone wants to read this report email a request to me at eric.stecker@bergerbullets.com.

The thicker jackets that were used in this test checked at less than .0002 TIR. I am convinced that we can make these thicker jackets with the same tight tolerances as all J4 Jackets. They will shoot as well as any Berger we make. Whether they will shoot at higher velocities remains to be seen. There is no doubt in my mind that someone will try to shoot these as fast as they can. I don't believe this is best for precision but I understand why higher fps speed is desireable,just keep the load safe and your eye protection on).

Regards,
Eric
 
Eric, that is greats news on the accuracy of the thicker bullets. Would be a positive change as we don't always get to baby our pipes in F class shooting.

Looking forward to more info.
Jerry
 
Eric,

I think that your blown primers might be from the temp. in the chamber, depening on how long they were in the chamber before they were fired. I know from hunting P-dogs that if you leave a round in the chamber for very long with out shooting it you can have a lot of trouble with rounds blowing primers and casings, I have had it happen to me,and others.Some thing to think about. Tim
 
Tim,

You make a great point. By the time we started shooting the thicker jackets the barrels were HOT. As a matter of fact I recall Mid saying that we should not leave a round in the chamber for very long in case the pressure were becoming unsafe. If you look at the times we were moving through the shooting very fast but the chambers had to be very HOT also and not all shots were cracked as the bolt closed.

I received an email regarding recording the temp of the barrels. I have asked how this can be done accurately,so that it is not influenced by the changing of the air temp). We'll see what is learned. If anyone knows how this can be done I am all ears,or eyes I guess).

Thanks,
Eric
 
Eric,

Ther are various digital thermometers which can be wired to the barrels, but a simple solution would be to use the temp strips sold by Neco.

http://www.neconos.com/shop/?shop=1&cat=9&

"BAR-L TEMPERATURE STRIPS

These strips can be permanently fixed to the barrel with the heavy duty clear plastic tape strip provided with the BAR-L TEMP STRIP. Three ranges to choose. Moderate Zero reads from 32F to 86F. Benchrest reads from 86F to 140F. General Purpose reads 86F to 194F. The strips are easily read. If the box is green, that is the temperature of the barrel. As the barrel gets hotter, the next block goes from black to green. The previous block goes from green to black."

TempStripx250.jpg
 
Eric,

For measuring barrel temperature there are a number of ways to do it. The temp strips previously recommended will work but are slow to react. You can also place thermocouples between the barrel and the stock. These react faster than the temp strips and you can also attach it to a recording device. Bad thing is it only measures one spot. One really interesting idea would be to use a thermal imager. They have some that can be attached to video recorders and that would allow you to see the temperature of the whole visible barrel as the test progresses. You could identify hot spots in the barrel that might contribute to bullet failure, see what effect cleaning has on the barrel heat patterns and with high speed cameras you could see the temperature of the bullet as is exits the muzzle to verify the melting core theory.
 
Eric

Cporter has a good idea,I my self use the temp.strips
I use them on my guns and when they get to 140* I put them down to cool off,that way I don't burn a barrel up.I would say that the F-class must go through barrels pretty fast the way they go through rounds in a match.Do you think that maybe they sould slow down a match,or is this not realy needed.I have never shoot a match so I do not realy know that much on how they run.Just my 2 cents. Tim
 
Infared laser thermometer. No attachments to the barrel......just point the laser at the barrel and pull the trigger,of the laser) then record the temp. Instant reading. Very accurate.

You would be able to read various temps alone the length of the barrel instantly.

Like this one:

http://www.infrared-thermometers.net/products/t7350.shtml
 
I like the idea of measuring the temp at the muzzle end and the chamber end. We can take a measurement when shooting of a 20 shot string start and ends. This will be an interesting variable to monitor.

I will have to use something that is both accurate and reasonably priced. I have not looked but something about a thermal image camera sounds expensive. I could be wrong. A laser might be just the ticket and we can have the strips on the barrels as temp verification.

When the next test is conducted we will definately record the temp.

I don't believe any of the match shooters would be excited about slowing the matches down. They are pretty long days to begin with and slowing them down would mean either longer days or fewer targets. I know that you are providing options but I believe this would not be well received.

Regards,
Eric
 
Eric,

Check in the JEG's or Summit books they have different heat guns at different prices, that you or some one can shoot the temp.while shooting a 20 round string. I know a lot of guys use them at the drag races to check the track temps. Tim
 
the time allowed for a F class relay is related to the number of shots fired. You usually get 1 min per scoring shot. That is very slow fire and most never get anywhere close to this.

I would say that with scoring, it takes about 30secs per shot. Most send a bullet down range as soon as the target pops up.

Yes, barrels get VERY hot especially those that are using big 7's. Some barrels will overheat so there is always a balance of ballistics, recoil and temp/accuracy.

Jerry
 
Eric,

You are right, thermal imagers are very expensive to buy. You may however be able to rent one for examining the barrel. High speed and high definition are more expensive yet. Rental and a someone to set it up is generally required. But you get something like the picture.


If you want to measure two points on the barrel then thermocouples, RTDs, or thermsistors going into a two channel data acquisition device can be relatively cheap to buy. This will allow continuous monitoring. The infrared,laser is just for aiming) sensors can be setup to continuously monitor too but are harder to fix on the rifle. They are great for quick temperature readings on black barrels, rubber etc. For shiny objects the emissivity changes and makes the infrared thermometers less accurate. A piece of flat black tape or paint on the barrel takes care of that. You can google two channel temperature recorders to find something in your budget.
 

Attachments

  • hotbull.JPG
    hotbull.JPG
    13.2 KB · Views: 74
I appreciate all the help on the temperature readings. We will definately make this part of the next test. Monitoring barrel tempurature may be a way to check barrels,and loads) for their potential to produce failures.

If we can identify that a 6.5X284,for conversation sake) using a load that produces 3,000 fps will be in a range of 110 to 120 degrees,again for conversation sake) after 20 shot through a room temp barrel and that this is a constant we can start quantifying combinations or barrels.

It just might be possible to test a combination for heat to determine several things about the combination that could not be realized before,or it could just be interesting data that doesn't mean much but I am excited about finding out).

Regards,
Eric
 

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Forum statistics

Threads
165,786
Messages
2,202,277
Members
79,089
Latest member
babysteel45
Back
Top