Barrel or Shooter

[StephenPerry]

Barrel or Shooter
Benchrest is an extremely tough Sport to stay in the trophies. Equipment plays a good part in maintaining that winning zone a lot different than that automobile term that I refuse to mention. You know when you are in the zone and would sell your soul to the devil to stay there. I know a few of these shooters some I shoot with some I know at the Nats and Cactus. The first shooter I know is Perry Morton. Perry was our guest instructor from our 2004 San Gabriel BR School. Perry a life long Indiana shooter came out to San Gabriel as a favor to me and spoke highly of his practice regimen while shooting himself into the BR HOF. One thing he stressed is have faith in your barrel and your smith. Perry was on a budget when he began benchrest and every barrel counted. He had excellent smith's that re-chambered faster than you change your underwear. Perry won a NBRSA Unlimited Grand Agg with a used barrel turned around backward and re-chambered. Perry was not a fluke he set records in Sporter class at most every major shoot he went to bringing the Sporter records up to the LV/HV levels. He was the best of his era. Perry was the youngest and quickest to make the Hall doing this in 1981 along with Walt Berger and Jef Fowler. What a trio.
Another of my legendary favorites is Don Geraci. Now he doesn't like his name thrown around but so what he is a legend. I met Don in my 1977 Nats trip to Kelbly's. My smith told me don't get close to him. I asked why I aint afraid of no Cajuns. Pete told me Geraci would cut your head off to eliminate another competitor. Francis a rookie like me said its all part of Don's getting in his zone. I spent some good time with the Cajun's and the Texan's back then. Don was good back then but only one of the good one's. Don made the Hall in all NBRSA Nats as he likes to claim. But where I learned to respect Don was his Super Shoot performances. Not sure of years some time in the mid 80's but Don won 3 Super Shoots and runner up in a fourth consecutively. He had the same barrel on a Sporter that he won all 3 Super Shoots with. Had to have thousands of rounds through it. Good barrels never give up shooters give up.
I will not talk about Tony Boyer I don't want to slight his coming book. Besides I consider Tony a friend and I think he feels the same of me.
One of my favorites now is Wayne Campbell. We live on different sides of the Country but we shoot together at the Nats and the Cactus. I met Wayne his first year at the Cactus about 6 years ago. I could see this guy was struggling to win in BR but like most of us he is on a tight budget. Tony was helping him out in the beginning helping him travel to far away shoots. Tony at the beginning told me Wayne was the best shooter he ever worked with, best condition reader. I had no doubt this was true. Wayne is not in the Hall yet but has been on several World Teams and won his share of large shoots. Not sure about the Super Shoot but I think he won one. Wayne spends a lot of time and money keeping competitve barrels, extremely competitive barrels.
Of my bunch of SW shooters my favorite is Dennis Thornberry. Dennis and myself were the only 2 BR Shoot Directors in California for a long time. Always a good call I always like to see Dennis win something at the shoots we go to even if he takes my 1st place trophies. Not yet in the Hall we are working on it. Oh he is now the NBRSA Prez. His advice is better than any book or memo.
Lowell Frei is my close friend. Probably the best 200 yd shooter in the Country. Lowell is several times a Hall shooter. He helps me with my bullet making and like Dennis his advice on shooting is some of the best. Lowell believes in getting all he can out of a barrel. A gunsmith and bullet maker he controls all aspects of his Sport. The good barrels he shoots them till they bleed.
Gary Ocock is the best I have shot with in the SW Region. Many times a Hall shooter. Being a gunsmith and a bullet maker Gary controls all aspects of his shooting game especially the brain. Nothing or nobody can stop Gary when he is in the zone. His shooting skills are almost flawless. Not sure what he does with barrels but I know he shoots a good barrel a long time.
Lester Bruno is the next best shooter I have shot with in the SW Region. Also many times a Hall shooter. This is only because Lester was starting his business out here for several years. Now that he feels comfortable with his business Lester can be and has been the big snake amongst our SW bunch. He has proven this the last couple years eating up Nats points. Superb shooter and friend.
Of my group at San Gabriel bunch Lawrence Weisdorn is top dog at the Nats winning 2 Championships in the last 2 years. Lawrence always has top equipment and understands the Sport for only being with us maybe 6 years. Don Nielson needs some points to make the Hall. Him and Dennis both half way with the points and I hope they both make it. Don has been hot this year especially with his scope work turning out so well. Gene Deloney is our best San Gabriel shooter this year but the man won't travel out his backyard and attend more Nats. He has a good excuse this year he is moving to Arizona. Hope when you get settled Gene you make some Nats before the desert sucks you up. Gene will shoot a good barrel as long as John Wayne keeps kicking his dog. Gene is also the gunsmith to a lot of San Gabriel shooters so he freshens up his barrel regularly.
So where does this lead us. My feeling is most shooters don't know when they have a good barrel. Too much time is spent at the gunsmith looking for the holy grail barrel. I say if you have had 5 barrels you have had the holy grail in your hands several times without knowing it.
My advice quit cleaning the good groups out of your barrel and work on your shooting technique. Great shooters have great technique at the bench. At our 2006 BR School Gary Sinclair pointed this out many times at his shooting class. Know your gun and equipment like your know your spud. Know where you came from in BR and where you want to go. Practice, practice, practice and then practice some more. Make every Shoot your money will get you to. Be ferrocious at your shoots. Learn to read conditions at different shoots take notes try several flag combinations. Don't be afraid to ask questions. Ignornace is a lonely game. Get all you can get out benchrest. Practice like you were at a Shoot. God loves a winner and so do you.
Stephen Perry

 

[chuckw2]

Great post Stephen...


I don't shoot Benchrest but you darn sure make me want to give it a try..

Chuck

 

[Hipshot]

Great post, Stephen.

I had a barrel that shot well, initially, then within 100 shots it became not so well. I chased the load, seating depth, technique etc and never really had confidence that my shooting was me, the loads or the gun. Without confidence in the loads and the gun, I did not know if it was me or them. I would say that confidence in one's loads is the first thing to get straight so that any anomolie can be traced to the shooter. Then one can work on position, technique, wind reading, etc.

I replaced the barrel with a good Shilen and easily worked up a good load. Now I know if it's me or the load/gun combination; and, it's not the load/gun if the scores are down.

 

[StephenPerry]

Hipshot
Glad to hear you salvaged the barrel. In my benchrest time I have had only 1 barrel that I couldn't shoot a low 2 agg at 100 with. That barrel is a fairly new Krieger 22 PPC on my LV. I'll make this barrel shoot have to find how it likes to be cleaned and a good seating depth. Never had a bummer barrel out of 25+ barrels and I have a couple of each. Want to try a Spencer barrel on my rail. I try and let the barrel tell me what it likes.
Stephen Perry

 

[TDuley]

Mr.Perry, heres a deal for you I have a Shilen DGM action,Broughton barrel with less than 500 rounds down it, MacMillan stock with a Jewell 1.5 tigger. my case are all trim up, I am shooting 118BIB's. I clean the inside of my neck's with a brush. So once while it will shoot off just a bit. Do you think that the tension on some of the necks might be my trouble? No wind so I know thats not it.



Thank's TDuley.

P.S. costom die JLC.

 

[StephenPerry]

Tom
You sound like you have covered most of the bases. I would ask what distances you are shooting and if you are using wind flags. One of my mentors stresses the need to keep trying to get your case neck centered in your chamber. After I neck turn I check several spots on the neck with a ball micrometer for 1/10 consistency. Neck tension will change as you shoot brass. Just enough might be right on one day snug on another. Lot depends on heat and humidity. Change up if you can't handle vertical. Better yet ask Tony Boyer he wins all the time.
Stephen Perry

 

[tightneck]

I've just discovered the competition forum mainly because I figured it was probably geared more to long range stuff as alot of the threads on the other forums are. I'm glad to see that your threads deal more in short range BR since that is what I am getting into. Some very informative threads for me. Reason I'm posting on this thread is I've been having some trouble tuning my LV rig and I'm wondering if I should be playing more with neck tension. I can usually get the rifle tuned by 1/2-1 click adjustments on the Harrells, but the last couple trips to the range, I couldnt get her out of the .3s. Ive played with seating depth on some occasions when I cant get powder charge changes to work, but this hasn't been working either.I'm running a full case of N133,29.5g or more) and barts bullets that shoot .1s when its tuned. So I guess what my question would be is, when you are chasing a tune, what do you find that you adjust more frequently that gets you where you want to be? Seating depth, charge weight, neck tension, or some combination of these things. Now that I am hooked on shooting BR, I find myself at the range alot, about 2000 rounds in the last 3 months) and I think Ive come to know this rifle pretty well but I cant figure out what up with it now. Maybe the barrel's shot but it would agg. in the high .1s to low .2s a week ago. Thanks for any input and thank you for your previous threads.

 

[StephenPerry]

Tightneck
First I don't talk in automobile terms about setting up a load for a BR rifle. New guys use that term seasoned shooters call it load development.
Since you change a lot of things I would stop doing that. As far as seating depth let the barrel seat the bullet. Record the jam shoot it. If not good back up .005 at a time. You will find a load that shoots well stay there also leave powder load alone. Learn to shoot. Worrying about loads is not going to help your game.
Wake up shoot guy smell the roses and take your game to as many Shoots as you can afford.
Stephen Perry

 

[tightneck]

So you are telling me that your loads shoot the same no matter what the conditions? I thought the reason BR shooters load at the range was so they could load to the conditions? I dont know about conditions out where you are but where I am, the humitity in the AM this morning was at 82% and in the afternoon 40%. With humidity swings like that, my rifle will not shoot the same load in the morning as it will in the afternoon. So if I want to shoot good groups, I have to change loads. I would sure like to shoot somewhere where I didnt have to worry about these things, but as far as I can tell, most BR shooters wouldnt be loading at the shoots if they thought they could keep thier rifle shooting in any condition,not counting wind and mirage of course).

 

[StephenPerry]

Tight
I can tell you this we have a Shooter who last year was our SOY and is leading again in SOY. He hasn't changed his load in 2 years and we shoot hot and cold conditions at San Gabriel. Right now your not consistent in your shooting. You asked for advice try what I told you. Give it 6 months when you find a good load don't change anything. Somebody I know made a big deal about my last comment in this Post so I am erasing it. It doesn't effect the content of the Post. Lost a friend over 1 comment, maybe he wasn't a friend after all. Don't mean to offend anyone if I do let me know.
Stephen Perry

 

[tightneck]

Thanks for the advice, you may be right in that I may be to quick to change things when I shoot a couple bad groups. I will try to not mess with things for a while and see if I can be more consistant. I guess I need to find a sweet spot where it will shoot in various conditions.

 

[Clarence]

Tightneck Sir:
Depending on what brass you are using? try 1.5 to 2 thou neck tension, seat the bullets long and let that $5,000.00 chamber do the work that it should by actually seating the bullet.
Now I would advise to TUNE,once established technique)with DA or just by humidity, the quest is to stay in the Velocity range that your rifle needs/wants and thicker air will cause problems with TUNE/Velocity, and as a side note windy days need some adjustments. Ya see that rifle is just like the Race Engine as to tuning for DA.
Hope that helps
Clarence

 

[StephenPerry]

Clarence
Barrels are not just like race engines. A better term is Load Development. You want to develop your loads in conditions similar to what you shoot the most. Learn how to hold off for what ever the days gives you for conditions especially for 200-300 yd shooting. You never win benchrest matches holding in the same spot waiting for your condition. You must take chances to win. Been there Done that.
Stephen Perry

 

[Clarence]

I beg to differ as to the Barrel/Race Engine and consider them the same or at least they will respond to tuning the same, ya see the DA effects both the ammo/barrel and the Race Engine.
Only in the Engine would one need to be almost on the money for tune the Rifle is forgiving to more or less degree.

Clarence

 

[StephenPerry]

Clarence
I have both. A race engine in my case a Boss 302 balls to the wall 1970 Mustang had nothing in common to my balls to wall 6 PPC BR guns. They don't even smell alike. Bad comparison bad choice of terms. Tune is a computer benchrest term. The proper term is Load Development. Been with us a long time. Do you shoot BR Clarence?
The Thread, Barrel or Shooter, I wrote was to get a discussion on whether good shooter technique can overcome an average BR barrel or can a superior barrel take an average shooter and increase their perfomance. I contend you need both to win. Average barrels will only do well in local shoots.
Stephen Perry

 

[StephenPerry]

Shooters
This Barrel or Shooter Thread is great for new and seasoned shooters. It is a little testy so far but I can handy this. This a good theme that will reduce all the fallacies people buy into to replace equipment that is competitive. Test yourself not your equipment, your shooting technique if bad can make the best rifle a good buy when you dump it. A hot barrel in good hands gives confidence. Read this Thread from the beginning and comment where you feel you want. I take most comments as positive and deal with the others my way. Appreciate each and every Thread on this Board and respond in kind with more info.
Stephen Perry

 

[StephenPerry]

Shooters
All you guys have done a great job on this barrel or shooter Thread. Now let's step it up a notch. What conditions do you seem to handle well. Honestly what aggs do you feel the barrel on your gun right now will shoot at 100/200 if you do everything right. That is a good load that your barrel likes and good technique on your part. I think good bench technique wins out everytime over good load.
If you are an erratic shooter I would suggest go to your practice range set your flags our, and set your bench equipment and gun up no ammo. Now watch your flags and simulate letting your trigger off. Do this 100 times each week and watch how your self control changes for the better. Guaranteed you will have less bad days in competition.
Stephen Perry

 

[JamesnTN]

why just 100-200 yds? I didn't know this forum was short range specific?

The Difference between Men and Boys is 900 yds.

 

[kaferhaus]

So you are telling me that your loads shoot the same no matter what the conditions? I thought the reason BR shooters load at the range was so they could load to the conditions? I dont know about conditions out where you are but where I am, the humitity in the AM this morning was at 82% and in the afternoon 40%. With humidity swings like that, my rifle will not shoot the same load in the morning as it will in the afternoon.

Humidity has the least effect of any environmental condition on point of impact. Minute in the extreme.

Density altitude is about the only meaningful correction you can make other than the obvious ... wind.

 

[Forum Boss]

The issue of humidity affecting powder dispenser,and presumably powder density) was hotly debated on Benchrest.com. This, of course is different than the question of how does humid weather affect bullet flight, all things being equal.

As to the first point, at the risk of being flamed, all I can say is I observed that my RCBS uniflow with a micrometer dropped a slightly different quantity,by measured weight) of thin flake powders and ball powders when it was very wet/cold outside as compared to a dry, hot day. Henry Childs said that was nonsense. All I can say is it was noticeable and recorded. There could be any number of reasons for this, but I found that I needed to adjust the powder measure a couple of micro-clicks to keep the weighed charge the same when it was raining.

For people who throw charges at the range, perhaps--and this is just a guess--what they are observing,humidity-based variations) is a slight difference in powder weight/volume resulting in different launch velocities. So it might be a load issue rather than different in-flight bullet behavior,if velocity is held equal). Nonetheless, this provides an empirical reason why loads might have to be adjusted in very humid weather. Either the volume thrown gets slightly off, or the powder itself has more moisture in it so speed changes. YMMV--I haven't seen the issue arise with extruded powders.