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Barrel length and width of accuracy nodes.

My own assumption is the shorter the barrel (within reason), the wider the accuracy node simply because shorter barrels are stiffer. This is totally an assumption since I have never tested this but would like to hear other people’s opinion, especially if they have firsthand experience.
BTW, just to be perfectly clear, this is NOT a question of whether a short or longer barrel is more accurate. That is a totally different question and do not need to be discussed here.
 
Should be the other way around. Longer, thinner barrel equals wider node. By definition a node is a single point but, but I believe you are talking practically. It is a vibration of the barrel. Long and thin will move more but it moves slower. This is the simplest form of the problem. The higher order modes complicate the problem quickly.

A short, thick barrel should be easier to tune in theory. Faster vibrations provide more opportunity to find a spot where the vibrations "line up" the way we want.

Lots of good reading on this. Harold Vaughn's book and varmint Al on the web are a good place to start.

Heat also plays a part and discontinuites in the steel. They are generally reasons to have a heavier barrels. It is a balance that each sport answers in a slightly different way.
 
Those that use tuners may tell you that they broaden nodes. Weight at the muzzle slows the barrel's primary swing. If you look at the material that Varmint Al came up with, to achieve positive compensation bullets must exit the muzzle before the peak of its rise as projected onto the target. He demonstrated that this can be done three ways, by add weight to the muzzle of a relatively short barrel, use a longer barrel, or reduce the diameter of the barrel slightly mid length. While this compensation is not as much of an issue at short ranges, it is at longer distances. The term node has a common definition that points to null points in a sine wave but when we speak of tuning nodes we are referring to combinations of seating depth and powder charge that produce the best accuracy. Experience shows us that these load sweet spots reoccur at more or less even intervals, both for powder charge and seating depth, which would lead us to the thought that they may be vibration related, but there is one other variable that might not be so intuitively obvious. Powder choice. Friends that have shot both LT 32 and VV 133 in 6PPCs tell me that LT's nodes are noticeably wider than 133's.
 
Those that use tuners may tell you that they broaden nodes. Weight at the muzzle slows the barrel's primary swing. If you look at the material that Varmint Al came up with, to achieve positive compensation bullets must exit the muzzle before the peak of its rise as projected onto the target. He demonstrated that this can be done three ways, by add weight to the muzzle of a relatively short barrel, use a longer barrel, or reduce the diameter of the barrel slightly mid length. .

Do you have a link to the specific V.A. page(s)?
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Exactly my point, Al has a gazillion pages. Who referred to the page would likely have the link to it. Seemed reasonable at the time ...

Oh, and Google is not your friend. Not if you value your personal freedoms, anyway.
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Here is my 2c. If the barrel is longer its node should be wider but each node will also be farther apart. If shorter the node will be narrower but closer together. Brian testing at AB showed that it was a factor of barrel weight and not stiffness that made for an accurate barrel.

Think of it like a tuning fork. Long vs short of them.
 
Here is my 2c. If the barrel is longer its node should be wider but each node will also be farther apart. If shorter the node will be narrower but closer together. Brian testing at AB showed that it was a factor of barrel weight and not stiffness that made for an accurate barrel.

Think of it like a tuning fork. Long vs short of them.
I disagree. My findings with tuner testing and vibration analysis is that stiffness is the critical and consistent factor affecting harmonics.
 
Mass and stiffness are both involved. Hard to change the stiffness without changing the mass. Yes it can be done for the purists.
Add a tuner.... the mass changes and the stiffness remains constant. Placement of the mass is variable.
 
Just daydreaming aloud here: What if you had an untapered barrel, and a tuner weight which could be positioned anywhere along its length? Been tried?
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Rim fire has used tuners for along time .
I can’t think of any place on a gun they haven’t used them . Mid barrel is still common .
Testing I have seen them work on
12” to 45” .650 to 3”
Rim fire center fire air rifle Muzzleloading and super pressure compress gas .
I think in time center fire will be the same as rim fire . Larry
 
I was lucky enough to have spoken with Harold Vaughn about this very subject. After studying his computer generated results I asked him whether he had found that heavy stiff barrels were more accurate. His answer was that weight produced more accuracy bun not necessarily stiffness.

One thing that I noticed from his material was that the longer the barrel time the more complicated that vibration patterns seemed to become, and to my thought, the less chance that those patterns would be the same, which may partially explain why short range benchrest shooters do not simply take the weight of their tuners as additional barrel length. Using the tuner on a shorter barrel slows the swing as if is was longer without the disadvantage of a longer barrel time. I think that when shooters found that they were getting more accuracy with shorter barrels they assumed that it was because they are stiffer, but as most of us are aware correlation is not causation.
 
Exactly my point, Al has a gazillion pages. Who referred to the page would likely have the link to it. Seemed reasonable at the time ...

Oh, and Google is not your friend. Not if you value your personal freedoms, anyway.
-
If you were typing to me.. it was more a statement than anything.. i actually don't use google.. it just sounds better than "DuckDuckGo Fu"..
 
Here is my 2c. If the barrel is longer its node should be wider but each node will also be farther apart. If shorter the node will be narrower but closer together. Brian testing at AB showed that it was a factor of barrel weight and not stiffness that made for an accurate barrel.

Think of it like a tuning fork. Long vs short of them.
To be clear, I agree that a longer barrel of a given contour will have a wider node than a short barrel of the same contour. What I don't agree with is the part where weight , not stiffness, makes accuracy.
Perhaps I'm reading more or less into that statement than is intended.

My findings have been that a less stiff barrel yields more muzzle displacement and a lower frequency, hence slowing things down and giving a wider node. I've cut barrels down to a smaller od at a point several inches behind the muzzle to create sort of a "hinge point." The result was a wider tune window and more muzzle displacement. Essentially, making a heavy barrel act like a lighter one in regard to how it responds with a tuner. The idea was/is to get a barrel to respond the same with a lighter tuner as it does a heavier one. A heavier tuner gives a wider tune window than a lighter one, to a point. Yes, a tuner can be too heavy and create accuracy problems instead of benefit it, but from what I've found, that point is north of about 12 ounces on a typical short range br contour barrel and length. Its pretty forgiving in this regard and not much difference between a lv and hv contour.
Keep in mind, stiffness is affected much faster with length than with diameter.

I also agree that nodes are further apart on a less stiff barrel. I don't think of this as a bad thing, as with increased muzzle deflection of a less stiff barrel, or one where more deflection is induced with a tuner, the barrel does a good job of what I call "talking to you." By this I mean that tune issues are more apparent, telling you that the gun is clearly out of tune vs a very stiff barrel that may well shoot within the condition yet be somewhat out of tune, making tuning decisions harder to make because you just can't always clearly see a small amount of out of tune with such small muzzle deflection.


I was lucky enough to have spoken with Harold Vaughn about this very subject. After studying his computer generated results I asked him whether he had found that heavy stiff barrels were more accurate. His answer was that weight produced more accuracy bun not necessarily stiffness.

One thing that I noticed from his material was that the longer the barrel time the more complicated that vibration patterns seemed to become, and to my thought, the less chance that those patterns would be the same, which may partially explain why short range benchrest shooters do not simply take the weight of their tuners as additional barrel length. Using the tuner on a shorter barrel slows the swing as if is was longer without the disadvantage of a longer barrel time. I think that when shooters found that they were getting more accuracy with shorter barrels they assumed that it was because they are stiffer, but as most of us are aware correlation is not causation.

I think the complications with barrel time are likely due to the forced deformation of the barrel coinciding with the barrel's natural frequency. The longer in bore time allows more time to be influenced by those frequencies. They're always there, from the time the trigger begins to move away from the sear, forward but with more amplitude as ignition and combustion occur.

It's a good thing that tuners are way easier to use than they are to fully understand, as there are so many variables that I don't believe its precisely calculable, all that's going on.
Whether using a tuner or not, accuracy is about timing bullet exit with optimal muzzle position. We often refer to this spot as a node. Longer barrels have more muzzle deflection and vibrate at a lower frequency than a short barrel of the same diameter, hence slowing everything down and having a larger arc. This all equates to a wider "node."

Adding a mass at the end of either has the same effect, even more so.

I think you know most of this Boyd, but it's good conversation.
You're idea of hinging the barrel does have a similar effect, as well.
 
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I was lucky enough to have spoken with Harold Vaughn about this very subject. After studying his computer generated results I asked him whether he had found that heavy stiff barrels were more accurate. His answer was that weight produced more accuracy bun not necessarily stiffness.

One thing that I noticed from his material was that the longer the barrel time the more complicated that vibration patterns seemed to become, and to my thought, the less chance that those patterns would be the same, which may partially explain why short range benchrest shooters do not simply take the weight of their tuners as additional barrel length. Using the tuner on a shorter barrel slows the swing as if is was longer without the disadvantage of a longer barrel time. I think that when shooters found that they were getting more accuracy with shorter barrels they assumed that it was because they are stiffer, but as most of us are aware correlation is not causation.
Boyd,

Thank you for willingly sharing the knowledge. I appreciate the conversation you shared with Mr. Vaughn (more than I can express with the written words).... The technical theory is one side, but tying it together with practical experience is awesome. When they meet wonderful things happen and we reinforce the learning. I would happily read hundreds of hours of nonsense for one little nugget like this. Thank You

Not sure Mike new what he was getting into when he sold me a tuner:D:D:D
 
To be clear, I agree that a longer barrel of a given contour will have a wider node than a short barrel of the same contour. What I don't agree with is the part where weight , not stiffness, makes accuracy.
Perhaps I'm reading more or less into that statement than is intended.

My findings have been that a less stiff barrel yields more muzzle displacement and a lower frequency, hence slowing things down and giving a wider node. I've cut barrels down to a smaller od at a point several inches behind the muzzle to create sort of a "hinge point." The result was a wider tune window and more muzzle displacement. Essentially, making a heavy barrel act like a lighter one in regard to how it responds with a tuner. The idea was/is to get a barrel to respond the same with a lighter tuner as it does a heavier one. A heavier tuner gives a wider tune window than a lighter one, to a point. Yes, a tuner can be too heavy and create accuracy problems instead of benefit it, but from what I've found, that point is north of about 12 ounces on a typical short range br contour barrel and length. Its pretty forgiving in this regard and not much difference between a lv and hv contour.
Keep in mind, stiffness is affected much faster with length than with diameter.

I also agree that nodes are further apart on a less stiff barrel. I don't think of this as a bad thing, as with increased muzzle deflection of a less stiff barrel, or one where more deflection is induced with a tuner, the barrel does a good job of what I call "talking to you." By this I mean that tune issues are more apparent, telling you that the gun is clearly out of tune vs a very stiff barrel that may well shoot within the condition yet be somewhat out of tune, making tuning decisions harder to make because you just can't always clearly see a small amount of out of tune with such small muzzle deflection.




I think the complications with barrel time are likely due to the forced deformation of the barrel coinciding with the barrel's natural frequency. The longer in bore time allows more time to be influenced by those frequencies. They're always there, from the time the trigger begins to move away from the sear, forward but with more amplitude as ignition and combustion occur.

It's a good thing that tuners are way easier to use than they are to fully understand, as there are so many variables that I don't believe its precisely calculable, all that's going on.
Whether using a tuner or not, accuracy is about timing bullet exit with optimal muzzle position. We often refer to this spot as a node. Longer barrels have more muzzle deflection and vibrate at a lower frequency than a short barrel of the same diameter, hence slowing everything down and having a larger arc. This all equates to a wider "node."

Adding a mass at the end of either has the same effect, even more so.

I think you know most of this Boyd, but it's good conversation.
You're idea of hinging the barrel does have a similar effect, as well.

I was just quoting Brian Lits at Applied Balistics when I said heavier barrel produce wider nodes. Do you think his research is flawed?
 

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