Ball vs Stick powder for 223 2022

[BobbyJ]

I don't have any preference other than Ball meters easier in my Dillon. I saw an old thread from 2007 on this but only 3 posts.

School me on the finer points of reloading. In 2022 have things change to were ball powder is taking over and stick is old school?

From what I have read so far.

Stick Powder
- Burns hotter - more barrel wear
- Harder to drop consistent charges on a progressive press
- Might be more precise even if its charges are not as consistent
- Lower velocities
- not as clean as ball

Ball Powder
- Meters easily
- Burns cooler = more barrel life
- Can be temp sensitive
- Tends to do better compressed
- Needs magnum primers to ensure even combustion and reduce hang fire risk in cold weather
- Can be as precise as stick
- Better top velocities
- man have anti copper ingredients
- burns cleaner can shoot longer before accuracy is affected.
--------------------------------------------------------------
I don't have enough experience to know one way or another.

Looking for people with more experience to comment. Maybe this list I made is way off base and needs correction.

I read this post that seems to show stick may have advantages.

"CFE223 is the most consistent powder I've tested when it comes to dispensing precision. However, IMR 8208 and VihtaVuori N 133 both meter nearly as accurately. But what's more important is that they both produce significantly smaller group size than the CFE 223, so much so that I sold my last 10 pounds of CFE 223. I just can't justify spending time loading less-than-accurate rounds.
In other words, the ball powders I've tested produce very consistent weights when dispensed but they don't shoot as well as the short stick powders even though the short stick powders vary in weight a little bit more from charge to charge."

 

[PracticalTactical]

I have never found a ball powder that gave me good enough results to use for F Class.

The best application for ball powder in my case was when loading for an AR15. It was just better at reliably cycling the gas operated semi.

Since ball powder kernels are smaller, you would think you could get a more precise load, and therefore get more consistent muzzle velocities, especially with an analytical balance, which I have. In practice, I have never found ball powders to provide particularly low velocity spreads.

I suspect ball powders require more retardant to control the burn rate (since the kernels are smaller) and as a consequence, there is less muzzle velocity repeatability than stick powders, but this is just my own theory that may not stand up to scrutiny. How else would they slow down the burn rate on such a tiny kernel of ball powder?

 

[BobbyJ]

I have never found a ball powder that gave me good enough results to use for F Class.

The best application for ball powder in my case was when loading for an AR15. It was just better at reliably cycling the gas operated semi.

Since ball powder kernels are smaller, you would think you could get a more precise load, and therefore get more consistent muzzle velocities, especially with an analytical balance, which I have. In practice, I have never found ball powders to provide particularly low velocity spreads.

I suspect ball powders require more retardant to control the burn rate (since the kernels are smaller) and as a consequence, there is less repeatability than stick powders, but this is just my own theory that may not stand up to scrutiny. How else would they slow down the burn rate on such a tiny kernel of ball powder?

Yes that theory might be correct. I will be using in ARs 16 to 24"

I shot some CFE 223 in loads of 24-27.4 gr using 55gr FMJ and range brass. SD was around 25 FPS best was 15 fps. I have new starline brass to see if the SD improves at all. Maybe friday.

I just found some 2230 (x-terminator) http://www.natoreloading.com/2230/
Seems to get decent reviews but most people are not F-class shooters so it could be "Its good enough dude"
but not F-Class Good enough. But in F-class you probably are not shooting varmint bullets 40-55gr are you?
Might be Stick powder shines with heavier stuff.

Most of the powders are all out of stock so just looking to try one more if availibility allows.

 

[urbanrifleman]

I have customers that are getting crazy good performance with TAC ball powder.

 

[markm87]

I am 100% extruded for AR and Bolt gun in 223. I can't tell it to be any dirtier at all. H322, XBR, and recently 3031.

I run all of these with Wolf SRM and each lot has to get a load development over published max in most cases to get the desired velocity. But even the 3031 outpaces my ACOG reticle on a 14.5 AR with 69gr RMR OTM bullets at 600 yards. It tracks the reticle pretty good 100-500 yards.

 

[Bronsin]

The only thing ball powders are good for is fireforming cases IMHO.

 

[BobbyJ]

I am 100% extruded for AR and Bolt gun in 223. I can't tell it to be any dirtier at all. H322, XBR, and recently 3031.

I run all of these with Wolf SRM and each lot has to get a load development over published max in most cases to get the desired velocity. But even the 3031 outpaces my ACOG reticle on a 14.5 AR with 69gr RMR OTM bullets at 600 yards. It tracks the reticle pretty good 100-500 yards.

Yea I have a ACOG and had to take it off for groups 4x mag makes it tough. They are nice in terms of durability and FOV.

 

[BobbyJ]

The only thing ball powders are good for is fireforming cases IMHO.

What issues have you had with ball powders? What kind of guns you shooting stick with? ARs or bolts?

 

[otnot]

I tried Stabal for my A10 and bolt 6.5 CM and just couldn't get as consistent groups as stick powders. I also tried CFE223 in bolt .223 and 90 gr. bullets. I could get the speed without pressure signs but I couldn't get the groupings of a stick powder. I'm now using 4064 in my bolt .223 with good results.

 

[BobbyJ]

I tried Stabal for my A10 and bolt 6.5 CM and just couldn't get as consistent groups as stick powders. I also tried CFE223 in bolt .223 and 90 gr. bullets. I could get the speed without pressure signs but I couldn't get the groupings of a stick powder. I'm now using 4064 in my bolt .223 with good results.

I don't have an issue with stick as long as it meters in my Dillon. I'm not hand trickling 223 I like shooting more than loading.

 

[CharlieNC]

Im on my 4th barrel for Ftr, with the last 2 chambered for 90gr. On the first 3 I evaluated several popular powders and found CFE to yield the widest node and best accuracy. Last Dec on the latest barrel I just tweaked the CFE charge to find tune. The good news is I've easily accumulated 3 8-lb jugs over the last two years.

 

[Bronsin]

What issues have you had with ball powders? What kind of guns you shooting stick with? ARs or bolts?

I shoot bolt actions, and accuracy is what I'm after. Ball powders don't make the grade in accuracy. Speed and ease of metering? Sure. They make sense when volume loading for an AR. There are 4 problems with ball powders.

1. The powder column is too dense for consistent ignition which kills accuracy.
2. It's very rare to get a load that has a good case fill volume, at safe pressures that delivers top speed and accuracy. Either you have a powder that's on the fast side with too much air space in the case that's always on the tightrope of knocking a primer out, or it's a slow powder that has slow velocity, burns dirty, and has a huge fireball out of the barrel.
3. The burn rate is controlled by coatings. How much is applied, and how evenly. That's asking a lot from the manufacturer.
4. Some of them are very temp sensitive, to the point of hardly being worth using.

I don't know of a single rifle competition where the go-to load involves a ball powder, in any cartridge being used at any range.

 

[jelenko]

don't know of a single rifle competition where the go-to load involves a ball powder, in any cartridge being used at any range.

It may depend on discipline. In XTC many of us use a ball powder [TAC, MR2000, 2520, Shooters World Match] very successfully. 1/2 MOA is great for us.

 

[K22]

First of all, the 223 Rem is capable of long rifle life regardless of which powder you use. As long as you don't shoot a large volume of sequential shots where the barrel become overheated, barrel life is not something you need to be concerned about with the 223 Rem.

I used ball powder in the 223 Rem, namely H335 and BLC2. The former yielded excellent groups with 55 grain bullets in 12" twist bolt rifles. Yes, it meters very consistently if that is important to you. My main difficultly with ball powders is their temperature instability, especially varmint hunting in 90+ temperatures, Also I experience considerable POI changes from early spring to mid-summer.

This was more pronounced in the 22 250 with H380 than the 223 Rem but enough that it caused me to move away from ball powders all together for rifles.

I stopped using ball powders many years ago. I found, at least for me, that "stick" powders are more consistent. In the 223 Rem, H4895, IMR 4895, Benchmark, and Varget all performed very well for me.

PS: Ball powder did not burn cleaner or produce higher velocities for me as you asserted in your post.

 

[Twdmar]

If you are throwing charges, what is your actual accuracy requirement? Even with a small case like a 223, the variation you'll get throwing a lot of stick powders is going to be difficult to notice even at a good distance unless you're looking at f-class or BR or something. But the you wouldn't be throwing charges with a dillon thrower. I have tuned my dillon thrower and with 77s it will clean the MR-1 target at 600 yards with the variance throwing Reloder 15. Unless you need a lot precision you're probably not going to give up a lot with ball powder. But you can throw stick powder and get better loads than you think.

 

[CJ6]

In factory rifles (Sporters and Varmints) I have just as accurate loads or better with ball powders as stick. So for me it's a toss up.

 

[Sandstorm]

Tac works amazing in small cases from my experience...hell even in 308 it shoot's good.
and my 6.5 grendel lives on Ramshot TAC and ,250 moa @100

 

[BobbyJ]

I shoot bolt actions, and accuracy is what I'm after. Ball powders don't make the grade in accuracy. Speed and ease of metering? Sure. They make sense when volume loading for an AR. There are 4 problems with ball powders.

1. The powder column is too dense for consistent ignition which kills accuracy.
2. It's very rare to get a load that has a good case fill volume, at safe pressures that delivers top speed and accuracy. Either you have a powder that's on the fast side with too much air space in the case that's always on the tightrope of knocking a primer out, or it's a slow powder that has slow velocity, burns dirty, and has a huge fireball out of the barrel.
3. The burn rate is controlled by coatings. How much is applied, and how evenly. That's asking a lot from the manufacturer.
4. Some of them are very temp sensitive, to the point of hardly being worth using.

I don't know of a single rifle competition where the go-to load involves a ball powder, in any cartridge being used at any range.

Some good points to think about.
I found H110 did the best compressed no air space in my 450 BM. And CFE is such I can't get enough in the case to case any pressure issues. But a faster powder with some air space seem it would not be ideal for ball powder.
If you had a AR Varmint gun with 24" 1/9 and had to make the best of it it what powders would you use for lighter bullets 40-55gr?
I want to try a stick powder some have smaller sticks that might meter good enough.

 

[Ray123]

I use both ball & stick powders...for different purposes and different calibers and both on some cartridges. Ball powders are generally faster ..alot faster in some cartridges...stick powder slightly more accurate in some cases. For instance 308 225 2675 fps 230 Atip 2620 fps, or 200 SMK 2856 fps
All in 30 " bolt how about 200 SMK 2640 fps in 18" AR-10. All ball powders...Can't get there with any stick I've tried. 300 RUM 250 Atip 3000 fps to 50BMG ball is alot faster... but stick may win in accuracy. 6 mm ARC 6mm ball fast and accurate 6 Dasher ball faster and accurate enough shootin 110 SMK at 3085 fps on steel (ball powder ) depending on use stick RL 15 108 Berger for accuracy on paper. In Hunting speed kills, I've always liked speed and accuracy...but will give up some accuracy for speed here. Shot imr 4064 today in 308 in an AR 10 I hadn't tried it in before...imr 4064 stick powder is the recommended accuracy powder in Sierra manual for 308.
It was a dog that wouldn't hunt, like every 308 I tried it in large velocity variations and inaccurate throughthe full range 125, 130 155 168 175, with the exception of the 168 Speer match 9 in .752" 10 in 1.032 out of group to the right LC brass .. which out shot the 168 Berger hunting bullet ....but many adore imr 4064, its accurate in my 220 Swift and 6 dasher. I finish the last lb, and will probably never buy another pound of imr 4064. Had really low velocity spreads with h380 ball in moderate loads in AR 10 in 308 but too slow a powder with the lighter bullets & short barrels and accuracy needed improvement. So I like both stick and ball, but probably consume more ball in all around use. I always remember old Walt Berger who used the 222 Rem in the early days, his target load was H335 ball with his match bullet. So a lot of ball h335 and 748 is what my 222s were feed too.

 

[AWS]

I pretty much use 4320 and H-380 in the 22-250, the gun and bullet tell me what they like. Same with the rest of my rifles with Exterminator, 748, Benchmark, 4895 and 3031.