Backward Spitzer's And Shot Dispersion?

[marty_01]

Hello All -- my first post here. This is perhaps a rather odd question. The attached is a reference to World War One German Infantry firing bullets base first in order to increase the ability of the bullet to penetrate armor. I'm specifically interested in the 2nd paragraph of the passage.

I assume the passage refers to spitzers fired by Mausers. I understand drag will increase significantly if a flat based bullet is fired base first. My question is not so much about drag or the ability of the bullet to penetrate more armor, but what affect firing a spitzer base first might have on the bullets accuracy. Would firing a spitzer backwards have any appreciable affect on bullet accuracy? For example, if I'm firing out to say 100meters or 200meters, should I be able to get the same sort of shot grouping regardless if I fire point first or base first?

Thanks very much for any help you can provide.

Marty

 

[Cheechako]

Marty

I guess the only way to find out is the old fashioned way - try it.

Wadcutter bullets are noted for their fine accuracy so it would seem that accuracy is not affected, at least as far as their normal use, which is 50 yards or less. I have shot many wadcutters and semi wadcutters at 100 and 200 yards in pistol silhouette and they seem to shoot as well or better than I can.

But, what do I know? I'm only guessing. Try it and let us know.

Ray

 

[JamesinAsheville]

Marty1 I can't remember where the article is right now but this guy was going to Africa hunting and some kind of special bullet had not come. He was advised my a friend to use a bullet he already had but turn it backwards. Long story short he did try them and killed an Elephant with the backwards bullets. It turned them into a FMJ type.

 

[marty_01]

Thanks everyone for your replies. Unfortunately I am not able to do any testing for myself.

I just thought it an interesting question. I suppose my assumption would be that a bullet designed specifically for stability in a nose first trajectory would not necessarily be stable in a base forward trajectory -- that is assuming I fire the same bullet with the same load -- nose first, than base first.

On the accuracy of wadcutters -- are they typically fired at subsonic muzzle velocity? Would they be equally accurate at supersonic, or would they have a tendency toward yawing and tumbling in-flight?

 

[mikecr]

I would think a boat tail fired base first would be so stable as to need no rifling at all.

 

[Cheechako]

On the accuracy of wadcutters -- are they typically fired at subsonic muzzle velocity? Would they be equally accurate at supersonic, or would they have a tendency toward yawing and tumbling in-flight?

Marty

Those are some great questions.

Wadcutters in cartridges such as the 38 Special are typically subsonic whereas those in the big boomers such as 44 Special or 44 magnum will start out supersonic. With such a low BC I'm sure that they rapidly become subsonic but I don't recall ever seeing them tumble, even at 200 yards. Of course, not all bullets will become unstable and tumble at subsonic velocities otherwise we'd never be able to shoot extreme distances. Maybe wadcutters are one of those that remain point on until they fall to earth. I suppose to answer your question I'd have to understand why some bullets tumble and some don't. But I don't.

Ray

 

[expiper]

HI Ray....your thoughts are rite on....I have been doing the bullet backwards thing since the 60's ...when we first got a wild turkey season here in these parts...I got the idea to be able to shoot em from 100yds away,,I am not a good turkey caller ..but no matter how good u are ...you will get more shots at 100yds that at 10yds...))using a rifle...I was into reduced loads...sooo...I thought why not turn the bullet around so it wont fragment,expand-blow up ..etc) and ruin the turkey...I have shot various cals over the last 40yrs doing this and have found that at reduced vel.,MV between 1200-1800fps) the bullets will fly further backwards vs forewards,,before tumbling or key-holeing!!!!My theory on this is that when a bullet tumbles,the back end is trying to get ahead of the front end,,so if the back end is allread up front,,,it will fly further before loosing it!! Most of my good turkey loads will shoot as good or better than the same rifle with typical full power hunting loads,up to 150yds...I have used both flat base and boat tail bullets....both with good resulets...but prefer the BT's because they retain vel better,,,more aerodynamic than a FB-wadcutter!!))) feed better thru the magazine because of the bevel on the bullet helps it feed out of the mag.....and they cant be confused or mixed up with conventional full power loads,and then mistakenly used in place of full powr loads on big game....
These rounds are attention grabbers...when folks hear a 243-270-30/06 popping like a 22mag. it is eye opening....I use them for turkey hunting,,but some of my customers have used them to humanely kill wounded game that is down and to do pest control in the garden without bothering the whole neighborhood!!!!
And to answer the original poster,,,when fired at full power and velocity they will penetrate thru metal or even bone/flesh much deeper because of the heavy base foreward is sorta like a premium FMJ style african/SWAT bullet...Roger

PS...to those reading this with limited reduced load experience....DON"T use reduced charges of slow burning powder....it is not accurate or SAFE to do so...I have had good results with fast pistol/shotgun powders and also 4198/4759/2400/N-110,not H-110 it is a ball powder-tabu-bad ju ju etc)-...I like the 2400 and N-110 best of all because of their powder density which generally helps prevent double charges and the disaster that culd ensue...BEWARE

 

[marty_01]

Thanks Ray and Expiper.

I don't suppose anyone knows where I can find a sectional drawing or photo of the standard service cartridges used by Germans in their Mausers during WWI? I'm curious if the bullet is flat based, or boattail, as well as how long the nose of the bullet is. I've come across a few images and drawings on line of the WWII Mauser spitzer -- but nothing on the WWI bullet.

I was wanting to figure out how much drop one might expect in the bullet when it's fired nose first vs. base first.

 

[USAPatriot]

Marty,

You're gutsier than I am. I have pondered this question for some years and have just never worked up the nerve to try it. I even had a lengthy conversation with Rich Machholz on the subject and he thought I should just go for it. I have a 6BR case sitting right here on my desk with a Nosler 80 sitting in it, base up. I probably pick it up and look it over at least once a week. Maybe soon -Rod-

 

[Cheechako]

Marty

I'm digging around trying to find some specs on the German WW I bullet but haven't found anything yet. It was a more-or-less plain vanilla 154 grain FB FMJ. The US 150 grain bullet was patterned after it. I could probably pull one of the german bullets from an old cartridge if you think you could learn anything from it. I'd guess that the length was around 1.1 inch with an ogive of 7 calibers, more or less. Does that give you enough to go on?

Ray

 

[USAPatriot]

Expiper,

Any thoughts on a load for 6BR, Nosler 80, with N133, H4895 or H335? Lucky me, I ran out of 4198 a few weeks ago and right now don't have need of any. Also have TAC, Benchmark, H380, IMR3031, maybe still have some W748, etc. -Rod-

 

[expiper]

Rod

Im not shure if you are contemplating a full power load or a reduced load with the bullet and powders in question...If full you are asking "full power"...then the 4895 with 56.5 cliks,aprox. 30.5gr)...or use 53 cliks,aprox. 28.5gr) of 133...these have workded well for me in a 6mmBR...
However....I would not reccomend using either of those powders for "reduced loads"....especially down in the 1200-1600fps range.....As I stated earlier try 2400,12-14gr) check the vel. with your particular components and bbl.....also you could use N-110 or Lil' Gun..with a charge wt of 110% of the 2400 charge....or Longshot or Universal Clays at 75% of the 2400 charge....as you can see the 2400 is my favorite powdr and is the baseline for all of my load development and testing...
These loads have been used and found to be effective reduced charges....they can be used to take small game,turkey-coyote-etc.) without severe flesh or pelt damage and also are effective means to duplicate the volocity of a bullet at long range,1000yds for example) while fireing at close range at ballistic jelletan or cadiver testing....it simplifies hitting the target at 10ft to produce wound caviteys typical of downrange hits.....I have used sierra 85gr HPBT bullets with very good accuracy and downrange ballistics,, and good results on game..I prefer the sierra/Hornaday/Berger style boattail over the Nozler ...they are a true BT, I consider the Nozler more of a bevel base...not near a good aerodynamicly,,and have much greater drop vlaues when fired at 150yd or so,, typically ....I hope this answeres your?????...Roger
PS,,,you will be pushing that bullet on your desk much further down in the case !!! the bearing surface is right at the BT,,and it will contact the throat very quickly.

 

[Cheechako]

Marty

I found a drawing of the German bullet. If you'd like to see it I can e-mail it to you.

Ray

 

[expiper]

Ray....is it a Krupp design...it is amazing how much they look like modern day sierra,etc.) bullets....the Germans had a handle on firearms and ballistics....Roger

Looking below...it is a great pic...very clear and descriptive...thank you....

 

[Cheechako]

Roger

I'm gonna plead ignorance. I'll post a copy here. I don't know how it will turn out cause it's a copy from a copy from . . .

Ray

 

[Cheechako]

I also have a drawing of the 198 grain BT spitzer and it does look exactly like one of Sierra's modern bullets. It is a WordPerfect document and I don't know how to post it here.

Ray

 

[expiper]

Ray...you obviously have extensive files and knowledge of modern,,since WW I)) firearms development....the Germans were doing some very advanced design work right up to the last days of the war...both in firearms and rocketry.....we would have never got to the moon or anywher out there if it wasnt for some Germans comin over to our side after the war,VonBraun for instance) ...of course we had some pretty good minds at work also...I am still impressed with the plain ole' 30-03/.30-06...still one of the best hunting/target ctgs. ever...and that was over 100yrs.ago!!!!...it seems like today we are just getting the bullets "rounder", and the metals purer ...and perfecting our machine work....even the new VLD's were called "dunce caps" bak in the day....every generation thinks they inventd metalurgy and "sex" ...hahah.....thanks for the good info..........Roger

 

[Cheechako]

Hey, I'm not as ignorant as I look. Here is the heavy German spitzer bullet. Is that modern looking or what?

Roger, the only thing that saved us from losing WW II in Europe was that Hitler was a psycho.

Ray

 

[marty_01]

Thanks everybody for your continued comments and for sharing your expertise on this puzzle.

Excellent work Ray! Thanks very much for taking the time to find these images and post them here. You are a scholar and gentlemen.

I think I can get a pretty good sense of the nose first ballistic coefficient from your picture. On the otherhand, calculating a BC for a base first shot is a little weirder. The German spitzer fired base first really has no nose length. But in essence an extremely long boattail. As far as I know, no one has developed form factor approximations for this sort of shape. I have CD curves for cylinders – but would that be appropriate considering the extremely long and pointed tail of a reversed spitzer? Any thoughts from anyone on how one might back out a BC for a reversed spitzer?

Regarding the excellent second image you found and posted – just so I am clear on this – it is that the German WWII Mauser bullet -- yes?

I came across these in my old copy of Hatcher. However the quality of the Hatcher sectionals is not so great. But it is interesting in that it shows a number of designs used by the various belligerents during WWI.

 

[marty_01]

I've been looking at the spitzgeschoss image posted by Ray. The base of the bullet has a concave area. The jacket does not extend around or into the concave area.

It sort of reminds me of older minie bullets with the large concavity at the base of the bullet. In the case of the minnie, I recall reading that the base expands upon firing such that the bullet bites into the rifling and spins.

Does the concavity on the base of the spitzgeschoss serve the same sort of function as the old minie bullets. Moreover is it left unjacketed and such so that the base can expand slightly into the rifling and bite to assure proper spin?