Attention Boyd Allen

[bigedp51]

Dear Boyd Allen

Imagine a beat up old milsurp rifle in print at Accurate Shooter.
And it set a Guinness World Record for longest shot with iron sights.

Shooter Hits Bison Target at 2240 Yards with Iron Sights

Could you hit a buffalo at 1.27 miles (2240 yards) … with iron sights? Impossible as that may seem, that’s exactly what Ernie Jimenez did last month at the North Springs Shooting Range in Price, Utah (elevation 5,627′). Shooting a milsurp Swiss K31 rifle chambered for the 7.5×55 Swiss round, Jimenez placed four hits on a three-foot-high, bison-shaped steel target placed a staggering 2240 yards from the firing line. Not bad for a rifle which Jimenez acquired many years ago for just $99.00.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2015/06/shooter-hits-bison-target-at-2240-yards-with-iron-sights/

 

[CatShooter]

Dear Boyd Allen

Imagine a beat up old milsurp rifle in print at Accurate Shooter.
And it set a Guinness World Record for longest shot with iron sights.

Shooter Hits Bison Target at 2240 Yards with Iron Sights

Could you hit a buffalo at 1.27 miles (2240 yards) … with iron sights? Impossible as that may seem, that’s exactly what Ernie Jimenez did last month at the North Springs Shooting Range in Price, Utah (elevation 5,627′). Shooting a milsurp Swiss K31 rifle chambered for the 7.5×55 Swiss round, Jimenez placed four hits on a three-foot-high, bison-shaped steel target placed a staggering 2240 yards from the firing line. Not bad for a rifle which Jimenez acquired many years ago for just $99.00.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2015/06/shooter-hits-bison-target-at-2240-yards-with-iron-sights/

And I betcha he only necksized too... maybe even oiled the case ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

 

[bigedp51]

And I betcha he only necksized too... maybe even oiled the case ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

CatShooter

Neck size a straight pull action......you must be kidding. Trust me at best you get two reloads before you have to pound the action open.

And why would you oil or lube a case on a action designed before 1900 using softer barrel steels.

I know you are joking (I hope) but greasing or oiling cases for older milsurp rifles will damage the rifle and increase the headspace.

 

[Brians356]

He cheated. That target is obviously not life sized.

 

[bigedp51]

He cheated. That target is obviously not life sized.

You are correct, the target is smaller, the average Bison is 5 1/2 to 6 feet tall at the shoulder. Now look at the person holding the rifle behind the Bison silhouette target designed for 300 yard shooting. The hump would be level with my belly button and I'm 6 foot 2.

 

[CatShooter]

And I betcha he only necksized too... maybe even oiled the case ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

CatShooter

Neck size a straight pull action......you must be kidding. Trust me at best you get two reloads before you have to pound the action open.

And why would you oil or lube a case on a action designed before 1900 using softer barrel steels.

I know you are joking (I hope) but greasing or oiling cases for older milsurp rifles will damage the rifle and increase the headspace.

Those rifles were made in the 50's and later, NOT the late 1800s

And the Swiss are know for the best steel and machining in the world - there is nothing "soft" about those rifles or barrels.

You are used to the English "Smelly" rifles

 

[Bigguy1951]

Three hits out of about 80 is not awe inspiring. Fun yes, but at that ratio luck is a big factor.

 

[BoydAllen]

Those fellows had a lot of fun. As has been mentioned, he must have shot 80 or so shots to make the hits that he did, and the whole thing was really made possible by the use of a target cam. I believe that the K31 was so numbered because it was first produced in 1931 and by then the design was considerably updated as I am sure the steel specifications had been as well. There is a lot of information on it and the earlier designs on the internet. On thing that I did notice was a discrepancy between sources as to the shoulder angle. The European version of SAAMI lists the angle between both shoulders as 61 degrees, which would convert to 30.5 degrees, which is pretty racy for a military case of any vintage, as is the body taper. Looking at where case design has gone, I would say that for accuracy purposes in a bolt action that it is a more modern looking design than the .308. One thing that was misleading in the writeup was that the number of shots was not mentioned, although it was in the video. This was not so much about the accuracy of the rifle, but rather persistence and a target cam. The target was within the area of bullet impacts and got hit by less than 10% of the shots. No matter, they had a great time.

 

[bigedp51]

Those rifles were made in the 50's and later, NOT the late 1800s

And the Swiss are know for the best steel and machining in the world - there is nothing "soft" about those rifles or barrels.

You are used to the English "Smelly" rifles

CatShooter, if your name was Pinocchio your nose would be 10 feet long.

The Swiss straight pull action was designed in 1889, and the K31s were first issued in the early 1930s and taken out of service in 1958. The replacement for the K31 was the Stgw.57 or SIG SG 510 and entered service in 1957.

And the sights on my No.4 Enfield rifle go up to 1200 yards and if I put the corn piles five feet apart range estimation is not a problem.

 

[CatShooter]

Those rifles were made in the 50's and later, NOT the late 1800s

And the Swiss are know for the best steel and machining in the world - there is nothing "soft" about those rifles or barrels.

You are used to the English "Smelly" rifles

CatShooter, if your name was Pinocchio your nose would be 10 feet long.

The Swiss straight pull action was designed in 1889, and the K31s were first issued in the early 1930s and taken out of service in 1958. The replacement for the K31 was the Stgw.57 or SIG SG 510 and entered service in 1957.

And the sights on my No.4 Enfield rifle go up to 1200 yards and if I put the corn piles five feet apart range estimation is not a problem.

You are just jelouse ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

... and you have been drinking the Clinton Cool-aid too long.

"The Karabiner Model 1931 (K31) is a magazine-fed, straight-pull bolt-action rifle. It was the standard issue rifle of the Swiss armed forces from 1933 until 1958, though examples remained in service into the 1970s. It has a 6-round removable magazine, and is chambered for the 7.5×55mm Swiss (also known as Gewehrpatrone 1911, GP11, or unofficially 7.5×55mm Schmidt–Rubin), a cartridge with ballistic qualities similar to the 7.62×51mm NATO/.308 Winchester cartridge. Each rifle included a 6-round detachable box magazine with matching stamped serial number. A charger is used to load the magazine from the top of the receiver.

The often-quoted but incorrect name of "Schmidt–Rubin" comes from two designers: Rudolf Schmidt, who designed the action for Switzerland's 1889 and 1896 rifles, and Lt. Col. Eduard Rubin,[1][2] who designed the ammunition.

Although the K31 is a straight-pull carbine like many other Swiss rifles, it was not designed by Rudolf Schmidt (1832–1898) as he was not alive to do so. The K31 was a totally new design by Eidgenossische Waffenfabrik in Bern, Switzerland under Colonel Adolf Furrer, and the gun does not have the Schmidt-designed 1889 or 1896 action. The first 200 K31s were made in May 1931 for troop trials (serials 500,001 - 500,200), thus the model number of 1931."

So it was designed 33 years AFTER the Mauser 1898 (which is no slouch or weakling in it's own right), and after the Springfield, and P-14, and after the M-1917 Enfield...

You need to take a hand full of cordite strings, cook them in boiling water until "aldente", add tomato sauce, and relax.

My K31 can beat up your Smelly every day of the week. ;D ;D ;D ;D

 

[bigedp51]

Three hits out of about 80 is not awe inspiring. Fun yes, but at that ratio luck is a big factor.

Further down the same link in the responses. (and no neck sizing or lubing cases)

Ernest R Jimenez says:
June 11, 2015 at 7:44 pm
“Spray and pray” is inaccurate, and inaccurate for the author of this article to imply; particularly if you watched the video from the beginning, which you overlooked. We rented this range two months in advance, and obviously having no control over the weather. When we began it started raining, and continued until we were forced to stop. That accounted for approximately 25 shots. We then paused untill it stopped, then I threw 25 more. Because the dirt was wet, +80% of all shots fired were undetectable and we were using 7 VERY experienced spotters, from the shooting bench and set up at 1500 yards. In addition we used three live feed cameras set up on/near the target. The impacts into the wet dirt created an impact plume of approximately one-foot neatly impossible to spit from 1.27 miles. Not till we paused a second time, to allow the second storm to pass, did I shoot a 25 shot string with 4 hits. It began raining (Storming) again and we were forced at that time to stop. On a side-note, last thanksgiving I shot this same target under reasonable weather conditions and achieved 7 hits out of 25 shots, same rifle, same setup. By no means, was this a case of spraying and praying.

 

[ridgeway]

Three hits out of about 80 is not awe inspiring. Fun yes, but at that ratio luck is a big factor.

I was thinking the same...not very impressive.

 

[bigedp51]

You are just jelouse ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

... and you have been drinking the Clinton Cool-aid too long.

"The Karabiner Model 1931 (K31) is a magazine-fed, straight-pull bolt-action rifle. It was the standard issue rifle of the Swiss armed forces from 1933 until 1958, though examples remained in service into the 1970s. It has a 6-round removable magazine, and is chambered for the 7.5×55mm Swiss (also known as Gewehrpatrone 1911, GP11, or unofficially 7.5×55mm Schmidt–Rubin), a cartridge with ballistic qualities similar to the 7.62×51mm NATO/.308 Winchester cartridge. Each rifle included a 6-round detachable box magazine with matching stamped serial number. A charger is used to load the magazine from the top of the receiver.

The often-quoted but incorrect name of "Schmidt–Rubin" comes from two designers: Rudolf Schmidt, who designed the action for Switzerland's 1889 and 1896 rifles, and Lt. Col. Eduard Rubin,[1][2] who designed the ammunition.

Although the K31 is a straight-pull carbine like many other Swiss rifles, it was not designed by Rudolf Schmidt (1832–1898) as he was not alive to do so. The K31 was a totally new design by Eidgenossische Waffenfabrik in Bern, Switzerland under Colonel Adolf Furrer, and the gun does not have the Schmidt-designed 1889 or 1896 action. The first 200 K31s were made in May 1931 for troop trials (serials 500,001 - 500,200), thus the model number of 1931."

So it was designed 33 years AFTER the Mauser 1898 (which is no slouch or weakling in it's own right), and after the Springfield, and P-14, and after the M-1917 Enfield...

You need to take a hand full of cordite strings, cook them in boiling water until "aldente", add tomato sauce, and relax.

My K31 can beat up your Smelly every day of the week. ;D ;D ;D ;D

CatShooter, you rat bastard you edited your post and added cut and paste information that you did not know before and even forgot the link you copied from. And I posted what I could remember from my book Military Small Arms of the World.

And your K31 will never beat my No.4 center bedded target rifle with its PH5C target sights. Your eyes are to old to see the barrel mounted sights.

The link below is not my rifle or video, I have a 1950 FAZ that has had more bedding work done with the same Parker Hale sights.

Lee Enfield No 4 Mk2(f) Target Conversion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaJuxcaFzdg

BUT this is my 100 yard target with my 1950 No.4 Mk2 FAZ.

And I would have hit that commie pinko Bison a lot more than four times. And how many wars did the Swiss win with their K31??

 

[searcher]

Last summer, while shooting at the Piru, California rifle range, a fella set up and asked me to spot for him on a few shots. I agreed, got on the spotting scope and asked at which distance gong he was going to shoot. "1,000" he replied, then pulled his black powder rifle (Sharps, I believe) out and began to fire. He whacked it more often than he missed. That was open sights and HE made the black powder and cast the bullets. A lot closer than 2240 yards - but pretty cool I thought.

 

[Steve Blair]

There was another, improved model before the K31, the Model 1911. It was produced in both carbine and rifle models. Here is a picture of my two Swiss rifles. The M1911 is on top and K31 on bottom. My 1911 was produced at the Geneva Arsenal in 1914 and has machining of the highest quality for the time, as does the K31. In practice, the 1911 rifle is slightly more accurate than the K31 owing to its longer sight radius. The barrel is ~30.5" long. Both use the very advanced GP11 cartridge, well ahead of contemporary cartridge designs. Both are great fun to shoot and, loaded to GP11 velocities, very easy on brass. I load mine with surplus 173 grain M72 Frankford bullets.

 

[william5409]

Hell!

 

[CatShooter]

Hell!

A very intellegent reply. Adds a lot to the thread.

 

[Laurie]

On thing that I did notice was a discrepancy between sources as to the shoulder angle. The European version of SAAMI lists the angle between both shoulders as 61 degrees, which would convert to 30.5 degrees, which is pretty racy for a military case of any vintage, as is the body taper. Looking at where case design has gone, I would say that for accuracy purposes in a bolt action that it is a more modern looking design than the .308. [BoydAllen]

I'd surely agree with this view. In fact, take the .284 Winchester and neck it up to .30 and you have a cartridge which although exhibiting some dimensional differences is the ballistic and likely accuracy twin to the Swiss GP11.

There was another, improved model before the K31, the Model 1911. It was produced in both carbine and rifle models. Here is a picture of my two Swiss rifles. The M1911 is on top and K31 on bottom. My 1911 was produced at the Geneva Arsenal in 1914 and has machining of the highest quality for the time, as does the K31. In practice, the 1911 rifle is slightly more accurate than the K31 owing to its longer sight radius. The barrel is ~30.5" long. Both use the very advanced GP11 cartridge, well ahead of contemporary cartridge designs. Both are great fun to shoot and, loaded to GP11 velocities, very easy on brass. I load mine with surplus 173 grain M72 Frankford bullets. [Steve Blair]

I'd also agree 100% with Steve on this. I had a mint IG11 (M1911 long version) many years back that looked like it had only been used for ceremonial purposes. (The only visible wear was to the blueing on the last inch, inch and a half of exposed barrel ahead of the muzzle cap apparently due to repeated fixing and unfixing of a bayonet.) It was likely my equal first 20th Century military bolt-action rifle in accuracy terms out of a 20 plus collection over the years, matched or bettered only by a 6.5mm M1895 Swedish Mauser that had been apparently built out of parts as a competition 'Service Rifle' match job. A K31 that I owned later wasn't nearly as accurate, but that would likely be down to use and condition not design. Anybody who has seen the bolt of the 1911 model and even more so the earlier 1880s version will be struck by their inordinate length and the amount of unsupported bolt body ahead of the rear positioned locking lugs. The Hornady manual cautioned many issues back that an overloaded round leading to case failure is extremely dangerous in these earlier models and I was always very cautious about this. In any event, if you loaded 'too hot', you soon knew due to major difficulty in opening the bolt and then again in the effort needed to resize the case-body. I found this out not with a handload but with the 100 rounds of Norma factory 180gn PSP ammunition that came with the rifle. After my first range session, I pulled the bullets of the remainder and removed 15% of the powder charge which proved about right in the 1911. The front-locking K31 is a much stiffer / stronger action and even if mine didn't perform as well as the 1911, I always felt a bit more reassured using it.

There were only 155,000 Infanterie Gewehr 1911 long rifles made from scratch, the majority of this model being carbines or conversions of a slightly earlier model. If you find a genuine 1911 long model in good condition grab it as they're not at all common.

 

[bigedp51]

For those of you who think old rifles do not belong in this forum, on the main page under IBS it lists Hunting and Tactical rifles.

Below is my "hunting" Enfield rifle with its Crocodile Dundee Magnum Roo light.

And below is my silenced stealth tactical Enfield rifle...

NOTE: No Koala bears were hurt or injured during the filming of this posting.

 

[BoydAllen]

Ed,
I think that most would assume that the subjects would be accurate hunting and tactical rifles. I believe that is was Townsend Whelen who wrote. "Only accurate rifles are interesting." Evidently definitions of accurate vary somewhat.