Are You Using The Neck Expander Button?

[yukonal]

I ask this question every year with my F-Class league buddies, and it seems to be 50/50.

Back in the 90's, the 3 die sets (with a body size only die) were the rage, and you could body size/bump without touching the neck. Supposedly your neck would expand to conform your chamber. The same was true, vise versa for body sizing, you could neck size, and leave the body alone until you had tight bolt lift. But you could always feel a couple (or a few) bullets seat differently when not using the neck button...thus a "tight neck" that would give you an excuse for a bad shot. :'(

It seems to me that once I put mine back in...all my dies, all the neck tension problems went away. All my bullets seat like butter when using the correct bushing. But I still hears guys that don't use a bushing say, "I had a couple bullets seat hard". They say using the button overworks the brass... :

How many of you guys DO or DON'T use your neck expander buttons when sizing during case prep?

And what is your reason for doing it either way?

 

[Joe R]

If you read Glen Zediker's book "Handloading for Competition" he has a pretty detailed explanation of the pros and cons of the expander ball and its deleterious effects on accuracy.

I stopped using it a couple of years ago. The approach is simple: divide and conquer. Doing two things at once is two times more difficult then doing each step separately. And when you really analyze the process, there is really no reason for you to expand the necks after they have been fired. Unless of course you're not resizing the necks properly in the first place.

Kindest regards,

Joe

 

[CatShooter]

I don't use them... on cases that need expanding for whatever reason, I use a Lyman "M" die as a separate step, after neck sizing.

 

[Joe R]

CatShooter said:
I don't use them... on cases that need expanding for whatever reason, I use a Lyman "M" die as a separate step, after neck sizing.

Same here.

 

[amamnn]

No expanders in dies--K&M mandrels instead

 

[Patch700]

I'm going to phrase this in a way that Mr. F.Guffey would....

"Before the internet" I would turn my necks to a uniform thickness so as to eliminate any irregularities that might translate into uneven neck tension or grip (Call it whatever you like).

I myself have a couple calibers I load for that are not bushing dies and for those I do as others above have eluded to , that is to have the neck sized to a specific dia. and then expand to final dimension.

 

[Lapua40X]

I remove the expander button from my dies because I found the buttons made case neck run-out difficult to control. Using a neck expander mandrel and a bushing die gives me much straighter and more consistent neck sizing.

 

[DeltaBravo]

I'm still having trouble getting my head around this question/answer. Why is the mandrel better than the button? Is it because the mandrel is made better or more accurately?

I have the carbide expander button in my Redding FL bushing die and get a very minor amount of expansion on withdrawal, based on almost no resistance to the button passing back thru the neck. Running the cases over a separate mandrel would increase the steps by one and I just don't get the point. What am I missing? ???

Dennis

 

[CatShooter]

I'm still having trouble getting my head around this question/answer. Why is the mandrel better than the button? Is it because the mandrel is made better or more accurately?

I have the carbide expander button in my Redding FL bushing die and get a very minor amount of expansion on withdrawal, based on almost no resistance to the button passing back thru the neck. Running the cases over a separate mandrel would increase the steps by one and I just don't get the point. What am I missing? ???

Dennis

OK... lookie!

You have a fired neck of 0.256", and a loaded neck of 0.249".

So you use a standard (RCBS) FL die, and it first sizes the neck down to 0.240", and the expander brings it back up to 0.248", and the case is Okie Dokie, but you would like more hold on the bullet. (more "tension").

And, you figure that moving the neck 16 thou is going to kill the case soon, and you want more grip on the bullet, so you buy one of the neato-nifty bushing dies.

Some dummy on Accurate Shooting tells you to buy a bushing 2 thou smaller than the loaded neck, so you get one that is 0.247"

You size case with the button in place, and you get a neck that is 0.248"

So you ask on Accurate Shooting, and the same dummy tells you need to buy a series of bushings, 246, 245, 244, and 243, to see which one works... so you send Sinclair about eleventy hundred dollars for Redding's total bushing output for the year.

You try the 246, and the neck sizes to 0.248"... so you try the 245, and the neck sizes to 0.248", so you try the 244, and the neck sizes to 0.248"... are you seeing a pattern here?

No matter WHAT bushing you use, it is the expander that is controlling the size of the neck, not the ($25 each) bushings.

The reason to NOT use an expander in a bushing die is because you loose all control of the sized neck, and loose all control of the neck hold on the bullet.

So if you have a bushing die, control the sized neck with the bushings, and leave the expander in the box.....

 

[Gabe22BR]

Yep can't see closing a neck up to fit in a chamber with a bushing, then pulling it back out with the ball. : :

 

[yukonal]

I remove the expander button from my dies because I found the buttons made case neck run-out difficult to control. Using a neck expander mandrel and a bushing die gives me much straighter and more consistent neck sizing.

In what order do you do this? Run the case thru the die, then run the expander thru the neck?


Cat shooter, that's a great example, and makes it easy to picture what's happening. I can buy that. But, and it's a small but , if the dreaded doughnut rears it's ugly head, I want something going down in there to smooth things out a bit. Truth be told, that's probably what's happening when you feel some tension...or dragging when you get a weird one seating bullets.

 

[CatShooter]

I remove the expander button from my dies because I found the buttons made case neck run-out difficult to control. Using a neck expander mandrel and a bushing die gives me much straighter and more consistent neck sizing.

In what order do you do this? Run the case thru the die, then run the expander thru the neck?


Cat shooter, that's a great example, and makes it easy to picture what's happening. I can buy that. But, and it's a small but , if the dreaded doughnut rears it's ugly head, I want something going down in there to smooth things out a bit. Truth be told, that's probably what's happening when you feel some tension...or dragging when you get a weird one seating bullets.

Donut? What donut, We ain't got no steeenkin' donuts.

We gots bagles and cream cheese

If you have donuts and shoot bullets that seat deep, then you have to remove the donut if you have a tight neck. You should remove it if you have a larger neck.

The donut is not removed by the expander. You can cut it out, or file it out, or remove it with a mandrel cutter, but you cannot remove it with the expander.

 

[MOShooter]

I have another question then. If I've used a bushing to get the case to my desired OD with my expander removed. Won't using a KM expander alter that? What is the purpose of using the expander with a bushing? Could be a dumb question from a newbie who is just starting to take baby steps in a new world.

Scott

 

[CatShooter]

I have another question then. If I've used a bushing to get the case to my desired OD with my expander removed. Won't using a KM expander alter that? What is the purpose of using the expander with a bushing? Could be a dumb question from a newbie who is just starting to take baby steps in a new world.

Scott

Anything you use inside the neck after sizing will alter what you wanted to do. If you have a donut, then it needs to be dealt with in the case prep stages, but once the cases are like you want, then keep stuff out of the neck.

 

[Gabe22BR]

I have another question then. If I've used a bushing to get the case to my desired OD with my expander removed. Won't using a KM expander alter that? What is the purpose of using the expander with a bushing? Could be a dumb question from a newbie who is just starting to take baby steps in a new world.

Scott

Expanders are for turning necks.

 

[Patch700]

I have another question then. If I've used a bushing to get the case to my desired OD with my expander removed. Won't using a KM expander alter that? What is the purpose of using the expander with a bushing? Could be a dumb question from a newbie who is just starting to take baby steps in a new world.

Scott

I cant speak for everyone but for my purposes this is my MO.
When I use a bushing die I am trying to control the neck portion with the bushing , not anything else...not a mandrel not an expander ball or anything of the sort..

Where I WOULD use a mandrel (And it wouldn't be specifically a k&m expander mandrel either as they are designed to expand to a dimension larger than our purpose here) is in an instance where I had a non bushing die that sized the necks too much and I did not want to drag the neck over an expander ball... What I would do is size the neck in the die and then do the expanding on a custom mandrel that allowed me a specific amount of fit for the bullet.

I realize that forster utilizes a slightly different approach to expanding by raising the ball to a higher point in the die so as to in theory perform the expansion while the case is still being supported , I don't necessarily buy into the fact that the case is fully supported as obviously if the case is on its way out of the die it can in no way be truly supported without getting stuck once the ball makes contact.

 

[Lapua40X]

In what order do you do this? Run the case thru the die, then run the expander thru the neck?

I run the case through the neck bushing die first, as a part of the FL resizing operation. IMO, it helps iron out any wrinkles in the necks exterior; like those little nicks that happen on ejection. The busing I use offers about .001 compression on the neck. I use the expander mandrel next to ensure everything is concentric. The sum total of the sizing operation, including neck turning where necessary, puts neck tension at .002 and neck clearance at .003 when the round chambers. My run-out, after seating the bullet with my Wilson seating die, is under .001.
I realize that some others may disagree with this procedure but opinions are like, well, you know; everybody has one.

 

[Joe R]

MOShooter said:

I have another question then. If I've used a bushing to get the case to my desired OD with my expander removed. What is the purpose of using the expander with a bushing?

Scott

Exactly... there is no purpose to using an expander ball or mandrel after resizing. After I resize the brass the only thing that goes inside the neck is powder.

I do use an expander mandrel, but it is only to prepare the cases for neck turning, and that happens only once in the life of the case. Rarely, I use an expander mandrel for a case that has a dented neck. The bushing will do your neck sizing that is why you use different size bushings to get different neck tension.

Joe

 

[Joe R]

Lapua40X
I run the case through the neck bushing die first, as a part of the FL resizing operation. IMO, it helps iron out any wrinkles in the necks exterior; like those little nicks that happen on ejection. The busing I use offers about .001 compression on the neck. I use the expander mandrel next to ensure everything is concentric. The sum total of the sizing operation, including neck turning where necessary, puts neck tension at .002 and neck clearance at .003 when the round chambers. My run-out, after seating the bullet with my Wilson seating die, is under .001.
I realize that some others may disagree with this procedure but opinions are like, well, you know; everybody has one.

I assume that somewhere in your brass prep you have turned your necks, correct?

If not, all your doing is moving brass around. The thick portion (non-concentric) of the neck doesn't disappear, it either goes on the inside or the outside depending on your sequence. Uneven thickness of necks is why we turn necks.

Kindest regards,

Joe

 

[bigedp51]

Anything you use inside the neck after sizing will alter what you wanted to do. If you have a donut, then it needs to be dealt with in the case prep stages, but once the cases are like you want, then keep stuff out of the neck.

CatShooter, would you "expand" on the statement above because in a earlier posting you said you use a type "M" die to expand your necks. I associate type "M" dies with seating cast bullets, but I assume using the type "M" die with jacketed bullets has something to do with runout while seating bullets. Please explain, I'm not being critical.