Are unadulterated powders better?

[Woofie]

Yes.... I know, this will be like throwing gasoline on a fire, but I have to ask.
Loaded up some test loads for .300 Win Mag using Berger 230s this afternoon, using IMR 7828SSC, H1000 and RE26. I'm happy with all these powders but the IMR powder has really shone for me and produces the least fouling.
I also know questioning whether "temp sensitivity" is really all that important for most shooters is a bit like questioning the thinking on climate change at the Glasgow COP "summit" (sic), but what the heck, let's go for it... Are unadulterated powders better, really?
When Hodgdon started importing ADI powders they latched onto to "temp sensitivity" thang and beat it to death. Do powders behave differently in varying temperatures? Certainly. But how do they impact most of us? Now there lies the rub. I live in the desert SW and wonder sometimes, how I ever got by without temperature insensitive powders. Were I to be a military sniper flying in from a mountain assignment to the deserts of the Middle East, I get it. But otherwise not so much. Seems to me "temperature insensitivity" has become a convenient excuse for a bad day at the range.
Similarly "copper fouling removal" has become a big thing, again started by the Hodgdon marketing department when they started prepackaging what we buy as CFE 223. Were I to be shooting a belt-fed MG in combat conditions, I get it. Otherwise not so much, really.
Seems like I'm picking on Hodgdon? Well, they led the marketing charge in these areas, however others have jumped on board to match them, which tells you how powerful those marketing pursuations have been. Otherwise, I have a great deal of affection and respect for that brand. Decades ago when I was a young reloading writer in the UK, the late Mr. Bruce Hodgdon arranged for me to collect various samples of their powders for use in my writing. This was when a number of Hodgon powders were made by Nobel in Scotland. It was very generous of him, and I haven't forgotten it.
But I do wonder, sometimes, if we haven't run down a rabbit hole we really didn't need to.
Not trying to be King Canute either.................................

 

[Titan]

I think each shooter needs to evaluate their requirements, for me in F Class shooting I like to be able to fire in a fast cadence and high volume during a relay and I am looking for low velocity variation during that relay. This is why I pursue "extreme" temperature insensitive powders as dual base doesn't provide the lowest velocity variation. I think it all depends on the use case for the rifle. Edit: typos

 

[TheCZKid]

All my powders are unadulterated, virgins one and all! They don't get out much...

Not sure what you mean by unadulterated powder, can you define your concern for me? Is the the CFE and Extreme and such features you're referring to? Thanks

 

[JEFFPPC]

Yes.... I know, this will be like throwing gasoline on a fire, but I have to ask.
Loaded up some test loads for .300 Win Mag using Berger 230s this afternoon, using IMR 7828SSC, H1000 and RE26. I'm happy with all these powders but the IMR powder has really shone for me and produces the least fouling.
I also know questioning whether "temp sensitivity" is really all that important for most shooters is a bit like questioning the thinking on climate change at the Glasgow COP "summit" (sic), but what the heck, let's go for it... Are unadulterated powders better, really?
When Hodgdon started importing ADI powders they latched onto to "temp sensitivity" thang and beat it to death. Do powders behave differently in varying temperatures? Certainly. But how do they impact most of us? Now there lies the rub. I live in the desert SW and wonder sometimes, how I ever got by without temperature insensitive powders. Were I to be a military sniper flying in from a mountain assignment to the deserts of the Middle East, I get it. But otherwise not so much. Seems to me "temperature insensitivity" has become a convenient excuse for a bad day at the range.
Similarly "copper fouling removal" has become a big thing, again started by the Hodgdon marketing department when they started prepackaging what we buy as CFE 223. Were I to be shooting a belt-fed MG in combat conditions, I get it. Otherwise not so much, really.
Seems like I'm picking on Hodgdon? Well, they led the marketing charge in these areas, however others have jumped on board to match them, which tells you how powerful those marketing pursuations have been. Otherwise, I have a great deal of affection and respect for that brand. Decades ago when I was a young reloading writer in the UK, the late Mr. Bruce Hodgdon arranged for me to collect various samples of their powders for use in my writing. This was when a number of Hodgon powders were made by Nobel in Scotland. It was very generous of him, and I haven't forgotten it.
But I do wonder, sometimes, if we haven't run down a rabbit hole we really didn't need to.
Not trying to be King Canute either.................................

You hit the nail directly on the head with the last sentence of your first paragraph. It applies to more then just powder sensitivity. All powder is sensitive to some degree. Shoot at 15 in the winter and 90 in the summer. Now, if your range of shooting is say 40 to 60 or 75 to 95 , not so much. In any case unless you have a very good rifle and are an excellent shooter I doubt you will know the difference. Its real , but in most cases just white noise.

 

[john 800]

I have one load for my 7 mag deer rifle that was developed in late fall and shoots great, and is just about max speed according to the books that uses Imr 7828. If I shoot it on a hot summer day groups open up noticeably and pressure signs appear. I dont hunt deer when its 95f so its not a big deal. But, it is kind of handy to not have to worry about it.
So no, we do not need it, but I appreciate the options.
Also there are alot of powders that are not terribly temp sensitive but are not advertised as such, imr 4350 in a 270? Never seen a difference 4064 in a 308? Same. That 7828 load is the only one I have seen that matters, but it works when I need it to so I am not changing it.

 

[Adam in WI]

I'd wager that a good percentage of shooters and hunters wouldn't notice the difference. If I work up a load with a Magpro in July, and take a shot at 350 yards hunting in November am I going to miss? That'd be a long poke around here. I could see if you frequently encounter shots of 500+, but how many of us do that regularly?

 

[Ned Ludd]

If the change in velocity with a given powder over a given temperature spread is enough to put the load "out of the window", then it's a problem. Potentially, it can be a quite sizable problem for competition shooting where the utmost precision really matters.

I recently purchased a powder I had never tried before, solely because it seemed to be available regularly, even in the current shortage situation, and I only wanted it for a practice load, to keep from burning up my Varget during practice. Turns out this powder is stupidly temperature-sensitive, as in slightly more than 60 fps velocity change over a 30 degree temperature change. Can I still use it? Of course. But it means I am going to have to work up a separate charge weight/load for practice rounds that will be fired when the temps are maybe around 50-65 degrees, 65-80 degrees, and for 80 degrees and over. That will suffice for my purposes and I fully intend to do it. Nonetheless, it's a PITA, and I'd rather not have to do it.

 

[Djfergus]

Yes.... I know, this will be like throwing gasoline on a fire, but I have to ask.
Loaded up some test loads for .300 Win Mag using Berger 230s this afternoon, using IMR 7828SSC, H1000 and RE26. I'm happy with all these powders but the IMR powder has really shone for me and produces the least fouling.
I also know questioning whether "temp sensitivity" is really all that important for most shooters is a bit like questioning the thinking on climate change at the Glasgow COP "summit" (sic), but what the heck, let's go for it... Are unadulterated powders better, really?
When Hodgdon started importing ADI powders they latched onto to "temp sensitivity" thang and beat it to death. Do powders behave differently in varying temperatures? Certainly. But how do they impact most of us? Now there lies the rub. I live in the desert SW and wonder sometimes, how I ever got by without temperature insensitive powders. Were I to be a military sniper flying in from a mountain assignment to the deserts of the Middle East, I get it. But otherwise not so much. Seems to me "temperature insensitivity" has become a convenient excuse for a bad day at the range.
Similarly "copper fouling removal" has become a big thing, again started by the Hodgdon marketing department when they started prepackaging what we buy as CFE 223. Were I to be shooting a belt-fed MG in combat conditions, I get it. Otherwise not so much, really.
Seems like I'm picking on Hodgdon? Well, they led the marketing charge in these areas, however others have jumped on board to match them, which tells you how powerful those marketing pursuations have been. Otherwise, I have a great deal of affection and respect for that brand. Decades ago when I was a young reloading writer in the UK, the late Mr. Bruce Hodgdon arranged for me to collect various samples of their powders for use in my writing. This was when a number of Hodgon powders were made by Nobel in Scotland. It was very generous of him, and I haven't forgotten it.
But I do wonder, sometimes, if we haven't run down a rabbit hole we really didn't need to.
Not trying to be King Canute either.................................

Glad that you brought this up. I've been thinking about this also. It's been touted that carbon fouling is lessened with the "unadulterated" powders. The IMR powders specifically. I personally don't have any data proving that information as true or false. I'm willing to listen to any feedback on the matter.

 

[mike mccormick]

Living in MO, early spring matches may start with frost on the ground, and end with temps in the upper 50s to lower 60s. Temperature sensitivity is very real in those days, and the wrong powder choice may end up trashing good brass.

 

[acloco]

I do notice differences in powders. My usage ranges from 0 F to 102 F. I prefer the Extreme line from Hodgdon for this reason.

The CFE powders, have shown no difference in a couple of barrels.

 

[243winxb]

Tin Oxide or Bismuth not wanted in my powder.

 

[Fuj]

I started using Reloder 16 from the beginning. It has all kinds
of alien agents blended, I will note that it shoots tight, and my
supply of Sweets has remained untouched with this particular
powder. IMR-4166 Enduron has been doing well with my short
284-ELF cat. I started using it as my supply of LOVEX-PR dried
up. 4166 has proven to shoot tighter then the LOVEX-PR.

Something I'll throw, to argue over is, the actual powder itself.
My most accurate loads have been with a single base extruded
powder, agents added or not.

 

[wbm]

Are unadulterated powders better?

No.

 

[Old Navy]

Wow! A six syllable word describing gun powder. I had to look that up before reading the thread. LOL

 

[Tommie]

I don’t shoot machine guns, but colony rodent shooting is plenty close. Hundreds of rounds per day and ammo catching direct sunlight for hours. If the copper fouling agents and temperature insensitivity agents actually work - I’m all for it.

 

[ben lurkin]

I was running some rather adulterous H414 in a 243 Ackley on a PD hunt some years ago. It was a rather warmish load when I developed it in 85* weather. When in NM and 100* temps in a warm gun, it would get sticky! I had to keep the ammo in the cooler on ice and be sure to not allow the rounds to soak in the chamber waiting for the next shot. It worked well enough to get me through that trip, but I switched out to H4350 afterwards, and found another accuracy node.

 

[Hammer]

In prairie dog country...

When I shoot powders of questionable moral fiber...

I keep a rubber mallet handy to open the bolt if they misbehave

 

[Doom]

OP,
You would do well to read Hatcher's Notebook on starting at page 300 concerning Gunpowder. The history of gunpowder has been written primarily by the world's military and to a much lesser extent by the company's that developed and made sporting ammunition and also manufactured gunpowder. Copper fouling prevention agents have been in gunpowder since shortly after WWI. From the start the powders have been adulterated with detergents and stablising compounds. Temperature stability has long been a known issue with powders. In the past it was recognized and dealt with by competitive shooters by varying their loads when necessary. Military ammunition procurement standards gave requirements for temperature/pressure at low normal and high temperatures. During the war in Iraq it became much more of a publicized issue as well as a real issue since it was highly possible that ammunition temperatures could exceed the temperatures covered in the specification. Coupled with the number of gas operated weapons the problem of reliability became a more prevalent issue.

In the case of copper fouling the military sought a powder with less fouling and powder producers increased the levels of additives (Tin and or Bismuth), to meet their requirements. You can read some of what St. Mark's did in some of the Crane presentations.

You made note of the marketing by Hodgdon. That is what they do, never manufactured a pound of smokeless gunpowder. However they do read the internet and any marketing guy worth his salt will market his product to meet what the consumer desires. And yes in some cases the products have been tweaked to produce a desired effect.

 

[Woofie]

OP,
You would do well to read Hatcher's Notebook on starting at page 300 concerning Gunpowder. The history of gunpowder has been written primarily by the world's military and to a much lesser extent by the company's that developed and made sporting ammunition and also manufactured gunpowder. Copper fouling prevention agents have been in gunpowder since shortly after WWI. From the start the powders have been adulterated with detergents and stablising compounds. Temperature stability has long been a known issue with powders. In the past it was recognized and dealt with by competitive shooters by varying their loads when necessary. Military ammunition procurement standards gave requirements for temperature/pressure at low normal and high temperatures. During the war in Iraq it became much more of a publicized issue as well as a real issue since it was highly possible that ammunition temperatures could exceed the temperatures covered in the specification. Coupled with the number of gas operated weapons the problem of reliability became a more prevalent issue.

In the case of copper fouling the military sought a powder with less fouling and powder producers increased the levels of additives (Tin and or Bismuth), to meet their requirements. You can read some of what St. Mark's did in some of the Crane presentations.

You made note of the marketing by Hodgdon. That is what they do, never manufactured a pound of smokeless gunpowder. However they do read the internet and any marketing guy worth his salt will market his product to meet what the consumer desires. And yes in some cases the products have been tweaked to produce a desired effect.

Indeed. I believe I've had my copy of Hatcher's Notebook for about 45 years, mas o menos. I've been blessed or cursed with a serious interest in interior ballistics since about then. Probably the best lecture on that I ever received was from a Colonel in the Royal Artillery, held in what was then the British Pistol Club hut at Bisley.
It's interesting that Col. Hatcher notes how the tin used to scavenge copper from bores actually caused its own fouling, which was minimized by reducing the quantity of tin used. I do not know if bismuth used as a copper scavenger causes its own fouling of a sort. But I'm guessing it does. All the "stuff" added to powder has to go somewhere, and it isn't always out of the barrel. Or, as they say in Yorkshire, "You don't get owt for nowt." (Translation: There's no such thing as a free lunch.)
I appreciate the contribution and the opportunity to pull out my HN.