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Are Lapua Scenar bullets undersized??

Hengehold

Silver $$ Contributor
I have often wondered why more people don’t use Lapua bullets. I have had multiple competitive shooters over the years tell me that some of the calibers are smaller than a standard diameter and would consequently require a tighter than average bore. I seem to recall the 6mm family being part of that conversation. This is all hearsay in my opinion since I have not used them myself and have never measured any of their Bullets myself.

Can anyone here confirm or deny experiences with Lapua Scenar bullets of any caliber being a slightly different diameter than the respective caliber family? For example, a .243 cal Bullet might actually be .241.

Thanks,
-T
 
I have a Lapua Scenar, 105 HPBT in 6.18 mm (.243) in my hands right now and will compare it to two other bullets I have on hand.

Lapua Scenar 105 HPBT p/n 4PL6065

Aft end of bearing = .2433
Front end of bearing =.2432

Berger 105 Hybrid, p/n 24733

Aft end of bearing = .2433
Front end of bearing = .2431


Hornaday 105 BTHP p/n 24585

Aft end of bearing = .2432
Front end of bearing = .2431

Measured with a Mitutoyo 0-1" X .0001 micrometer no. 103-135
 
Last edited:
Trevor,
I am late to the party with Scenars but got a deal on 1000 .308/155 Ls. Had to cut my throat .100" longer to have enough powder space in one of my Palma guns but was rewarded with 5 rounds through one .35" hole at 100 yds. with irons. Their bearing surface is a bit longer and my velocity is down from 2980 to 2940 but their BC is higher than the Sierra 2156s. If they are undersized, don't tell me because they are working!
 
Have a look at:

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/?s=6mm+bullet+diameters&submit=Search

............ but note the dates. Lapua and others may have changed their specs since then.

It's not just maker. I've noticed that a manufacturer sometimes uses a different diameter as well as shape with a new model. Sierra traditionally produced bullets 0.0002-0.0003 above the nominal dia., but my early batch of 183gn 0.284" SMKs are noticeably skinnier than the older 175 and 180gn MKs.

watercam, the 155 Scenar has long been popular with our 'Target Rifle' shooters in the UK who handload. Most people here use slightly 'tight' barrels though on our TR and Palma rifles and I believe that is also the case too in the US among those who expect to shoot national / international events with issued ammunition. The Scenar shoots very well in these barrels which would compensate for any slight undersize tendency - but as our NRA sources ammunition loaded with the older 155 SMK, the #2155 model, for major competitions including the annual 'Imperial' matches, these slightly 'fat' bullets do just as well (other than windage with their lower BCs) as the specification is for the load to produce full pressures and ~2,925 fps in a 'tight' barrel in good condition chambered with whatever is the current 'in' Palma reamer. This does mean though that pressures and MV go down in a 0.300/0.3080" spec barrel.
 
Have a look at:

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/?s=6mm+bullet+diameters&submit=Search

............ but note the dates. Lapua and others may have changed their specs since then.

It's not just maker. I've noticed that a manufacturer sometimes uses a different diameter as well as shape with a new model. Sierra traditionally produced bullets 0.0002-0.0003 above the nominal dia., but my early batch of 183gn 0.284" SMKs are noticeably skinnier than the older 175 and 180gn MKs.

watercam, the 155 Scenar has long been popular with our 'Target Rifle' shooters in the UK who handload. Most people here use slightly 'tight' barrels though on our TR and Palma rifles and I believe that is also the case too in the US among those who expect to shoot national / international events with issued ammunition. The Scenar shoots very well in these barrels which would compensate for any slight undersize tendency - but as our NRA sources ammunition loaded with the older 155 SMK, the #2155 model, for major competitions including the annual 'Imperial' matches, these slightly 'fat' bullets do just as well (other than windage with their lower BCs) as the specification is for the load to produce full pressures and ~2,925 fps in a 'tight' barrel in good condition chambered with whatever is the current 'in' Palma reamer. This does mean though that pressures and MV go down in a 0.300/0.3080" spec barrel.

Thanks for the very pertinent link! That pretty much explains where the “Scenars are a different size” idea stemmed from.

Great info.
-T
 
Trevor,
I am late to the party with Scenars but got a deal on 1000 .308/155 Ls. Had to cut my throat .100" longer to have enough powder space in one of my Palma guns but was rewarded with 5 rounds through one .35" hole at 100 yds. with irons. Their bearing surface is a bit longer and my velocity is down from 2980 to 2940 but their BC is higher than the Sierra 2156s. If they are undersized, don't tell me because they are working!

Thanks for the info. I also took advantage of that sale and bought a few thousand of the 155 Scenars even though I have never used them before. Attached are my notes from velocity ladder load development in a 30” 1-10 Krieger with H4895. No pressure signs with any loads. Seems there may be a node worth exploring at 42.5-43.0gr (~2950fps) and 44.0-44.5gr (~3050fps). I did not expect to get that much velocity with that Bullet and barrel because it has a “2011 Palma” chamber. Consequently, the ass end of the bullet is seated deep into the case and I am using a faster burning powder than the Varget recipe that I have used in the past.

The 155 Scenars are a very long Bullet AND have a long bearing surface which is somewhat unique. I would think a long Bullet would have a shorter bearing surface. Obviously, the 155 Scenars have a lot of airspace in the nose of the bullet.
I wonder if that characteristic is present among all bullets & calibers in the Scenar lineup?

-T

P.S. when looking at attached load data please note I only do load development in ambiant temp of 80 Fahrenheit or higher.
 

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Obviously, the 155 Scenars have a lot of airspace in the nose of the bullet.
I wonder if that characteristic is present among all bullets & calibers in the Scenar lineup?

Yes, it's a very deep cavity - I once filed the meplat off a bullet and put a straightened-out paper clip down inside. The lead core starts a long way down.

As to being characteristic of the breed, IME every Scenar is a fresh sheet of paper job. No other .308 Scenar / Scenar-L has anything as good as the 155's G7 0.988 form factor - the others are all well over 1.000 including the newest members, the 175 and 220gn L types which appear to be more 'tactical' types than long-range F-Class or similar. Most calibres seem to have one, occasionally two, low drag / high BC models for long-range shooters and the rest are different, usually higher drag. Never figured Lapua's bullet design philosophy out, to be honest. Lapua must be one of the very few manufacturers which still produces 30-cal match quality FMJBTs, in the form of the B-series Lock-Base models and the legendary D-series, the 185gn D46 being the great, great grandchild of early boat-tail Lapuas designed for and loaded into Finnish 7.62X53R machine-gun ammunition for extreme long range firing, starting sometime back in the 1920s

Very, very well made / consistent models though. Over the years, I've used the 155 308, 123 and 139 6.5mm, 105 6mm, and 181gn 7mm 'L' with good results and complete satisfaction at long range and I still have a few boxes of D46 308 185s in my cupboards.

To illustrate the designers' addiction to Heinz 52 varieties, let's look at the 6.5s which the Scandinavians specialise in having been designing and making them from about 1894 or so. Although not as high a BC as some 140-143gn competitors, the antediluvian 139gn Scenar is a super long-range bullet and still very popular among experienced shooters in the UK in all 6.5 cartridges. The much younger 123gn Scenar in the calibre is another great design especially for the smaller 6.5s and a very capable 1,000 yard performer in the little 6.5X47 Lapua. Yet, the still newer 120gn Scenar-L is a relatively high drag model, albeit a great choice for short-range and the fairly recently introduced 136 'L' has almost the same form factor as its 139gn grandsire - so no external ballistics progress in a generation or more, unlike Berger which simply keeps pushing the drag envelope. I doubt if the putting production quality ahead of raw BC value does Lapua any great commercial favours these days as the market is now in thrall to BC alone. :(
 
Yes, it's a very deep cavity - I once filed the meplat off a bullet and put a straightened-out paper clip down inside. The lead core starts a long way down.

As to being characteristic of the breed, IME every Scenar is a fresh sheet of paper job. No other .308 Scenar / Scenar-L has anything as good as the 155's G7 0.988 form factor - the others are all well over 1.000 including the newest members, the 175 and 220gn L types which appear to be more 'tactical' types than long-range F-Class or similar. Most calibres seem to have one, occasionally two, low drag / high BC models for long-range shooters and the rest are different, usually higher drag. Never figured Lapua's bullet design philosophy out, to be honest. Lapua must be one of the very few manufacturers which still produces 30-cal match quality FMJBTs, in the form of the B-series Lock-Base models and the legendary D-series, the 185gn D46 being the great, great grandchild of early boat-tail Lapuas designed for and loaded into Finnish 7.62X53R machine-gun ammunition for extreme long range firing, starting sometime back in the 1920s

Very, very well made / consistent models though. Over the years, I've used the 155 308, 123 and 139 6.5mm, 105 6mm, and 181gn 7mm 'L' with good results and complete satisfaction at long range and I still have a few boxes of D46 308 185s in my cupboards.

To illustrate the designers' addiction to Heinz 52 varieties, let's look at the 6.5s which the Scandinavians specialise in having been designing and making them from about 1894 or so. Although not as high a BC as some 140-143gn competitors, the antediluvian 139gn Scenar is a super long-range bullet and still very popular among experienced shooters in the UK in all 6.5 cartridges. The much younger 123gn Scenar in the calibre is another great design especially for the smaller 6.5s and a very capable 1,000 yard performer in the little 6.5X47 Lapua. Yet, the still newer 120gn Scenar-L is a relatively high drag model, albeit a great choice for short-range and the fairly recently introduced 136 'L' has almost the same form factor as its 139gn grandsire - so no external ballistics progress in a generation or more, unlike Berger which simply keeps pushing the drag envelope. I doubt if the putting production quality ahead of raw BC value does Lapua any great commercial favours these days as the market is now in thrall to BC alone. :(

I agree that the bullet revolution that has occurred in the past 10 years or so has really raised the bar for BC expectations among shooters. After looking at the Lapua product line via the Lapua website I am left with the same questions about “why isn’t Lapua trying to take part in this improvement in Bullet BC”? I suppose that explains why they acquired Berger. If you can’t beat them, then join them. :-)

-T
 
I have a Lapua Scenar, 105 HPBT in 6.18 mm (.243) in my hands right now and will compare it to two other bullets I have on hand.

Lapua Scenar 105 HPBT p/n 4PL6065

Aft end of bearing = .2433
Front end of bearing =.2432

Berger 105 Hybrid, p/n 24733

Aft end of bearing = .2433
Front end of bearing = .2431


Hornaday 105 BTHP p/n 24585

Aft end of bearing = .2432
Front end of bearing = .2431

Measured with a Mitutoyo 0-1" X .0001 micrometer no. 103-135
Have you had a chance to shoot some of those Senars yet?
 
I have played with the 136L 6.5mm Scenars. They were the most consistent factory bullets I have ever measured, even from one lot to the next. I think you could have scrambled lots and shot them.
 

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