ARA SHOOTERS--QUESTION ABOUT CLEANING FREQUENCY

[dusterdave173]

Hey Gang

Ok we have several CZ 457 MTR rifles we are shooting in ARA 50 yd
We started out really good at local matches--have had a lot of good finishes, wins, etc
Then I started cleaning the barrel after every match--really well. All I saw from places like Killoughs and Whidden suggests that clean barrels shoot better--they all seem to agree on about 100 shot range--OK so we go at it--Our First cards were always really sweet--second card OK then we noticed a drop off on cards after that--so started with a dry patch after two--then went to wet after 2 or 3--man! Our results started going down hill--I wasted a lot of time blaming ammo etc.
So yesterday I started with fresh clean barrel--with 3 lots of known good ammo--first card was good then it seemed to drive me crazy--like it was working to do good but just could not stop slinging "flyers" I was about 170 shots in--about ready to toss the rifle in the woods when all of a sudden it gets to Work! It laid 10 5 shot groups with 3 lots of same ammo in the expected tiny little groups--so I Think I have discovered my trouble and that these things need way more 'seasoning" after a good clean ---
I am just wondering what other shooters have encountered and what your routines are--
It ain't easy being a rookie
Thanks!

 

[jvshiver]

I shoot a bergara, I clean my barrel about every 5-6 matches. My shooting partner shoots a CZ and he cleans his barrel about every 5-6 matches also but he runs a patch in his chamber only after each round.

 

[cavedweller60]

I run 2 wet patches and 2 dry patches through after my second card. Then take about 5 foulers before getting after it again. That being said, I am new to the game but, I was definitely seeing a drop in scores in the 4th, 5th and 6th cards.

 

[dusterdave173]

Thanks! jvshiver That is exactly what I am looking for--I think I just got down the wrong alley for a short while and it was hurting my scores--rifle had been just hammering--just wanted some reassurance --it can get easy to blame ammo
Suddenly all my ammo got way better after I crossed that "seasoning" threshold

 

[dusterdave173]

We had been shooting local two card matches--when we went to some ARA 5 card deals is when I got off in the weeds

 

[TRSR8]

Thanks! jvshiver That is exactly what I am looking for--I think I just got down the wrong alley for a short while and it was hurting my scores--rifle had been just hammering--just wanted some reassurance --it can get easy to blame ammo
Suddenly all my ammo got way better after I crossed that "seasoning" threshold

You seem like a new shooter. First off, how do you know it was not good old fashion conditions?
FWIW, the best RFBR guns in the business get cleaned on a regular basis, most after a card, maybe two and often as often as not with a proper solvent and quality brush.
Even going down to clean metal, a good barrel does not require anything much in the way of sighters.
What you use, how you use it, how often you use it, how you maintain your chamber…..all open questions. Lack of regular cleaning is usually far worse than any other mis cue.
Remember, when in doubt, when it goes off the rails, cleaning frequency does not typically cause fliers, shooters and condition changes do the vast majority of the time.

 

[Rockingham]

i suspect factory chambers like a few rounds to help develop the carbon ring. most factory chambers are way oversized compared to match chambers and the carbon ring helps center the bullet up better. match chambers start out tight and can't afford too much buildup before it starts to interfere with accuracy.

 

[dusterdave173]

I will test my way out of this
I guess I was surprised at my test yesterday--I had been making decisions before I had enough rounds down the pipe
I had thought clean is the Same-- so that will work-- but the darn rifle shoots crazy good with more "seasoning"
It had acted like many others --after a clean-- it pops one high, then one at 12 oclock then a dead nuts x--so I was using that data to say Ok get on with it
But..it seems that it is Much more consistent and will really Show Out and bug hole with a lot more rounds than that --for how long is the next question
Stay tuned....
FWIW this CZ has a very tight Match chamber- bullet is inserted well Into the rifling -bore scope shows build up of carbon ring but I am not convinced Yet that it has any negative effect --or I will say I don't know how far it can go before it is negative
My gut feeling is keep testing

Again ALL ideas and experiences and feedback are appreciated with regard to factory rifles like CZ etc in an ARA type situation
THANKS! All we want to do is Learn and get better We have worked and tested really hard with bench manors , set up, etc Have several lots of proven ammo--This cleaning deal is the next challenge

 

[tominboise]

I have an Annie with a Shilen barrel and shoot ARA unlimited class. I clean after every card. Meaning one wet patch and two dry patches. The rifle will hold up with two cards without cleaning but three or more and scores go down. It takes about 3 shots to verify zero after cleaning. It takes more shots to season the bore when switching from one ammo brand to another, like 35 plus to get rid of the variability in POI.

I bore scope after every match and clean the carbon ring, if there is one. I worry less about what the bore looks like.

 

[TRSR8]

i suspect factory chambers like a few rounds to help develop the carbon ring. most factory chambers are way oversized compared to match chambers and the carbon ring helps center the bullet up better. match chambers start out tight and can't afford too much buildup before it starts to interfere with accuracy.

Wherever you learned that, unlearn it fast, it’s dead wrong .

 

[Williwaw]

FWIW this CZ has a very tight Match chamber- bullet is inserted well Into the rifling -bore scope shows build up of carbon ring but I am not convinced Yet that it has any negative effect --or I will say I don't know how far it can go before it is negative

Since a carbon ring is not going to ever improve accuracy I don't allow one to develop if I can help it. They don't get any easier to remove either.

 

[Mike_McAllister]

I think a portion of 'learning' a given barrel is learning how it likes to be cleaned. I do not think they all act the same. My current Shilen ratchet usually shoots better the second card after cleaning than it does the first card after cleaning. It only takes 5 (or less) shots after cleaning to have it back to zero, but I definitely see more unexplained flyers during the first card after cleaning. I used to clean the chamber/throat area with a nylon brush with solvent, on a short rod, and then run one wet patch and a couple dry patches full length. I did this after every card, but lately I have been doing the same things, but after every three ARA Unlimited cards, or about 100+ shots. My scores have improved some and my misses are closer than when I was cleaning after every card. I do believe there is something to be said for the idea of cleaning the carbon ring, but not over cleaning the remainder of the barrel. Also, I do not use a bronze or nylon brush on anything but the chamber area. My thought is to observe what happens to your accuracy when using different cleaning frequencies in order to learn your own barrel.

 

[jepp2]

My thought is to observe what happens to your accuracy when using different cleaning frequencies in order to learn your own barrel.

Excellent observation in my opinion. I don't compete against others, just shoot for trying to reduce my group size. There is such a wide variety of opinions as this post has illustrated.

I came across this article over a year ago. I started following the advice offered, an it has resulted in a significant reduction in my group sizes (I shoot at 100m outdoors). So I am sharing in case others wish to follow or not.

A Guide to .22LR Barrel Care for the Precision Rimfire Shooter - The Truth About Guns

By Gregory J. Roman As anyone involved in the shooting sports knows, precision rimfire is growing rapidly. The internet is full of tons of advice, good and bad, on how to perform better as a shooter. If there is one thing that my time at Vudoo has taught me, it’s that there is not much ... Read more

www.thetruthaboutguns.com

 

[dusterdave173]

That article makes sense--I started using Rimfire Blend--then started chasing my tail. Had a Clean barrel sure looked good but....
Now off to the range! Will report

 

[PWNolan]

The title should probably read...ARA FACTORY CLASS SHOOTERS....

What you've read from Dan K and Whidden are likely regarding match grade barrels. I suppose SS match barrels and factory barrels can be two different things, although that hasn't really been my experience. When I shot my T1x in ARA factory class I did a light clean after each card just like I do my UL guns. After the match or practice session I do a more thorough clean. Next match a couple rounds down range and the guns are shooting like they should, that includeds my Tikka (or CZ 452, etc). I've experimented with not cleaning my T1x and it shot no better than it does clean. I just makes it more difficult to clean when I finally decide to go ahead and do it. I've also experimented with not cleaning most of my other factory rifles. I'd let them go well past 200-300 rounds. A couple of rifles I was using for position shooting I let go a whole match season. Then I cleaned and they shot as good or better than they did previously. After 35+ years of shooting 22LR fairly seriously I've never been able to prove to myself that they shoot better dirty than clean.

I guess the bottom line is....do whatever you think produces the best results for you and your rifles. If you decide you think your guns shoot better dirty then shoot them dirty. Keep in mind you're going to want to establish when they might start shooting poorly. I'd hate for them to go south in the middle of a match. That's one benefit if cleaning. You're at the same starting point each time you go to the range.

One last note. A few months ago I asked Paul T (Lakeside/Muller Rimfire Barrels) what his thoughts regarding cleaning barrels. His reply...."I always recommend cleaning after every card or box of ammo." That conversation was regarding SS match barrels specifically and there was a little more to it. It's my opinion (and experience ) that factory chrome-moly barrels are a little more durable and take longer to for the "sandblast" erosion from priming compound to start. However, it does start eventually. Personally, I choose to clean my chrome-moly barrels like I do my SS match barrels and keep the corrosion to a minimum

 

[dusterdave173]

Well..I agree Factory guns is what I was asking about
Then the term "Clean"---- I think I am running into issues because I did not realize that the Rimfire blend is stripping away all of the good stuff--I too thought start clean every match then you have a std starting point but again I think I was cleaning the bore to well--we will see--lots of testing this next week--wish me luck My rifle has shot much better--just aiming to get back to that point

 

[PWNolan]

Well..I agree Factory guns is what I was asking about
Then the term "Clean"---- I think I am running into issues because I did not realize that the Rimfire blend is stripping away all of the good stuff--I too thought start clean every match then you have a std starting point but again I think I was cleaning the bore to well--we will see--lots of testing this next week--wish me luck My rifle has shot much better--just aiming to get back to that point

Dave, I use Rimfire Blend (and others) along with a few passes with a fairly tight fitting Pro-Shot 22 LR brush. The barrels on all my rifles are usually squeaky clean when I head to the range.

Again, experiement and do what works best for you. If you do decide to shoot dirty, shoot that way for awhile. At some point try shooting clean again. You might be surprised that the clean thing works out better than the first time you tried it

 

[Rockingham]

Wherever you learned that, unlearn it fast, it’s dead wrong .

Timmy? Is that you?

So you think this gentleman missed conditions for 170 shots and then suddenly figured it out and started drilling it? That's sort of disrespectful don't you think?

Or perhaps his factory chambered, factory barrel, isn't quite as tight as a custom chambered SS barrel and 170 rounds was just what it needed to shrink things up enough to center the cartridge?

Maybe not, but given these 2 possibilities, I'm going with the one that gives a fellow shooter the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Raydee]

This is just my opinion but this season I started out only cleaning the carbon ring by soaking the chamber with a mop soaked in C4 and then one wet patch with C4 down the barrel followed by a few dry patches. Somewhere in the middle of the shooting season I started reading and changed my cleaning routine to include scrubbing the barrel down to bare metal after each match and my scores tanked. Toward the end of the season I went back to my original cleaning technique and my scores jumped back up again. At the last match I was talking to the guy that was in first place who happens to shoot the same rifle with the same barrel and asked him about how he cleans his rifle and he basically told me he only cleans at the end of the season and never touches the bore all season.

This cleaning info was also given to me by the Bulleye pistol guys who only clean the carbon ring in the chamber and rarely touch the barrel unless they have to. Again this is just my opinion, Rimfire can be fickle and I don’t think any two Rimfire barrels act the same.

 

[13Tundra]

Hey Gang

Ok we have several CZ 457 MTR rifles we are shooting in ARA 50 yd
We started out really good at local matches--have had a lot of good finishes, wins, etc
Then I started cleaning the barrel after every match--really well. All I saw from places like Killoughs and Whidden suggests that clean barrels shoot better--they all seem to agree on about 100 shot range--OK so we go at it--Our First cards were always really sweet--second card OK then we noticed a drop off on cards after that--so started with a dry patch after two--then went to wet after 2 or 3--man! Our results started going down hill--I wasted a lot of time blaming ammo etc.
So yesterday I started with fresh clean barrel--with 3 lots of known good ammo--first card was good then it seemed to drive me crazy--like it was working to do good but just could not stop slinging "flyers" I was about 170 shots in--about ready to toss the rifle in the woods when all of a sudden it gets to Work! It laid 10 5 shot groups with 3 lots of same ammo in the expected tiny little groups--so I Think I have discovered my trouble and that these things need way more 'seasoning" after a good clean ---
I am just wondering what other shooters have encountered and what your routines are--
It ain't easy being a rookie
Thanks!

C4 in the chamber for 5 minutes followed by 2 dry patches after every card works best for me. C4 removes the carbon but not the seasoning. Rifle is a Bergara B14R.