AR opinions.. opening a can 'o worms..
- Thread starter 1deadpdog
- Start date
I have had a Jewell in an AR since they produced the very first batch and have been very happy with them, that is to say until I got a hold of a Geisslle trigger. The Geisslle is by far the finest one made to date and they are second to no one in customer service and satisfaction. Bill Geisslle is a friend and only lives about a mile as the crow flies from me. His shop is state of the art cnc and edm technology. I am proud to be a dealer for Geisslle triggers. Check out what he has to offer.
http://geissele.com/
JS
http://geissele.com/
JS
rcw3 said:
Thanks, guys... Wow, tough choice, I do really like the looks and the personal touch Mr. Geissele puts into his product.. Impressive..
The Colt was a CAR-A3.. Stopped at my smithy's yesterday, he has a Bushmaster w/H-Bar upper.. Nice looking, almost identical setup as the Colt, $200 less.. Says he's sold a lot of that config, hasn't sold one Colt since the market opened up.. I'll be checking on this one some more.. Much more versitile than Colt, too.. We didn't check twist, betting it's a 9. Stainless 22"Light Bull, full float, flat top, more venting on front handguard. He thinks the Bushmaster has a much better 'out of the box' trigger than Colt. Bushmaster opinions? this one is set up really close to what I'm looking for w/o $$ in immediate upgrades.. Good upper/ lower mating, tight. Trigger is not far,, would have to see how it is.. <<$1200? 8)
We'll have to do some checking on throat and twist.. see if there's anything in the paperwork that came with..
jscandale said:
It's easier to spell! ;D
I hate to whoop out "The Chart", but it really is a good start in explaining the differences between a Colt and a BM, even though it deals with M4s not A2s or A4s. The chart doesn't show it, but BM doesn't offer any of the finer details that separate a good AR from a great AR. Get one in your hands and do your best to compare it to the chart. Take the thing apart. Remove the sight tower. I've replaced barrels & triggers on both. You can tell which has better parts and QC. Even the buffer on the BM is cheesy compared to the Colt.
Here are the 2 pages you need for that one:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&gid=5
for the explanation and
https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0AqmgMm61Ok7WdExwaG16OENzOEZ1akp2a3Y2NjMxTEE&single=true&gid=2&output=html for the actual chart.
Besides the chart, my experience has been that Colt's are more reliable, the sights aren't wobbly, the barrel is more likely to be a 1/7 twist. Does BM even make a 1/7? They didn't use to.
Plus the workmanship is plain better. I can spot a Colt from 20 feet away just by the finish. I'm not sure what it is about the finish, they just *look* smoother, more even, "better" colored. You can tell just by looking at them. There is a look that says "Colt" and it is nice.
The Colt is worth an extra 2 bills any day, every day.
Except for those darn large pin/trigger block Colts. Man, do I hate those!
Here are the 2 pages you need for that one:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&gid=5
for the explanation and
https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0AqmgMm61Ok7WdExwaG16OENzOEZ1akp2a3Y2NjMxTEE&single=true&gid=2&output=html for the actual chart.
Besides the chart, my experience has been that Colt's are more reliable, the sights aren't wobbly, the barrel is more likely to be a 1/7 twist. Does BM even make a 1/7? They didn't use to.
Plus the workmanship is plain better. I can spot a Colt from 20 feet away just by the finish. I'm not sure what it is about the finish, they just *look* smoother, more even, "better" colored. You can tell just by looking at them. There is a look that says "Colt" and it is nice.
The Colt is worth an extra 2 bills any day, every day.
Except for those darn large pin/trigger block Colts. Man, do I hate those!
The Colt CR6724 is an outstanding value for accuracy and Pdog shooting. I chose to get one for that purpose years ago and have shot the first one out, and am now well through the second rifle, which is as good.
I added a Jewell trigger and a GG&G riser rail for the scope, the rest is in the handloads.
I added a Jewell trigger and a GG&G riser rail for the scope, the rest is in the handloads.
Pyscodog
Gold $$ Contributor
This will probably get me roasted, but your rarely hear accuracy and Colt in the same sentence. If you want to shoot 500 yds at p-dogs, I would suggest a custom built AR. Lots of rifles out there in the price range of a new Colt that will get you there. If the rifle is for long range, shop before you buy, spend your money wisely! JMO
I bought 5 different Ar15- H-Bar versions at one time. 2 0f them were colt and 3 of them were Bushmasters. All of them were good shooting rifles (1.25moa or better) but all 3 of the bushmasters out shot the 2 colts with the 5 different loads that I tried in them. These were factory rifles right off the shelf and the same scope was used for testing all five. I think you pay a lot for the colt name.....Ask most revolver shooters and fans of the 1911 if colts are their first choice.
Bingo. Take a stroll down the firing line at Nationals, or most any other high profile Service Rifle match and you'll be hard pressed to find a Colt. The fact is, the DO have the large trigger pins, and a mil-spec guarantee of accuracy; that's to say, if it shoots 3 MOA and you send it in with a complaint, you'll get a nice form letter informing you that it shoots "within factory accuracy specifications."
Plenty of very good ARs out there to be had, but very few of them come from Hartford. As to the extra "two bills", as the song goes, look for the Union label. That's where the added cost comes from.
Plenty of very good ARs out there to be had, but very few of them come from Hartford. As to the extra "two bills", as the song goes, look for the Union label. That's where the added cost comes from.
walker2713
My Boy Hap....
You might want to take a look at Dtech up in Minnesota.....
They built my .17 Remington upper....a real shooter...it has a Bushmaster lower and Geiselle trigger.....
They built my .17 Remington upper....a real shooter...it has a Bushmaster lower and Geiselle trigger.....
I know that's probably profound, but I'm having trouble grasping the logic.
The crossover between "paper-punching" and practical application is evident in the roles and function of the very large contingent of military who participate in rifle competitions, particularly the AMU. Much of what they learn makes its way back into the field.
For competitive shooters (particularly Service Rifle shooters like Kevin describes), both reliability and accuracy are paramount. The weapons need to be durable, repeatable, function flawlessly, shoot 1/2 MOA or better out to 600 yards, withstand thousands of rounds of hot ammo with heavy bullets each year and being rebarreled several times.
If that does not describe quality, I'm curious what does...
Beau said:
Not gonna catch me arguing that one... That's why you see fewer and fewer Shrubmasters on the line. (See, this is good - we've found common ground.)
If I had to guess, I'd say Rock River is probably the most common these days if you're talking out-of-the-box, with a mix of other good manufacturers. They make a good product at a decent price - that seems to work well in a free market. It's also why they're getting government contracts.
It's very common to see uppers built by White, Holliger, and now Scandale (Hi John) on top of old who-cares-what-it-was lower receivers (including Bushmaster) with replacement triggers. What Shrubmaster has over the Colts here is that they are all standard pin, so the triggers and uppers are more readily replaced or swapped.
"Not all that is quality is meant for paper."
"Not all that is suitable for paper-punching is quality."
Beau
Your first sentence is absolutely correct. I spent plenty of time in a line infantry unit, and many years after that in Law Enforcement. I've kicked more than my fair share of doors, and fully appreciate the differences between a full-on target rifle and one intended for business applications. Different animals, different missions.
As to the second . . . maybe not for you, but those of us who compete seriously are going to have a different take on this one. We'll spend thousands of dollars annually on the trip to Perry, housing, fuel, time off work, etc., just to make the trip to the Nationals. Add to that the hundreds (thousands?) of hours spent prepping for that trip in local and regional matches, individual practice sessions and team practices. The very notion of using something that wouldn't qualify as a "quality" piece for such an application is idiotic. Too much riding on the outcome, even if it isn't a life or death blood sport for the participants. Spending $2K on a properly set-up Service Rifle is pretty easy, and I won't think of going to Nationals without an identical back up rifle on hand. In the bigger scheme of things, however, the money spent on the rifle itself is chump change compared to the other items that go hand-in-hand with this sport. I can assure you, none of us are going to use a poor quality rifle or components with this much riding on the line. You, however, are free to use whatever you wish.
"Not all that is suitable for paper-punching is quality."
Beau
Your first sentence is absolutely correct. I spent plenty of time in a line infantry unit, and many years after that in Law Enforcement. I've kicked more than my fair share of doors, and fully appreciate the differences between a full-on target rifle and one intended for business applications. Different animals, different missions.
As to the second . . . maybe not for you, but those of us who compete seriously are going to have a different take on this one. We'll spend thousands of dollars annually on the trip to Perry, housing, fuel, time off work, etc., just to make the trip to the Nationals. Add to that the hundreds (thousands?) of hours spent prepping for that trip in local and regional matches, individual practice sessions and team practices. The very notion of using something that wouldn't qualify as a "quality" piece for such an application is idiotic. Too much riding on the outcome, even if it isn't a life or death blood sport for the participants. Spending $2K on a properly set-up Service Rifle is pretty easy, and I won't think of going to Nationals without an identical back up rifle on hand. In the bigger scheme of things, however, the money spent on the rifle itself is chump change compared to the other items that go hand-in-hand with this sport. I can assure you, none of us are going to use a poor quality rifle or components with this much riding on the line. You, however, are free to use whatever you wish.
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