AR-15 Wildcats
- Thread starter jscandale
- Start date
Dennis,
Ditto on all of what you said. I've been through it all as well. I will say that the Hornady brass is very high quality from what I have tested so far. That is one of the reasons for the WOA Improved.
Tank,
The velocity is surprisingly good considering the smaller capacity compared to the .243. Carl Bernosky gets about 2900 from the Hagar. I have not pushed it that hard. I was using .30 Rem brass whis was designed for for a much lower pressure cartridge. I have not push too hard on the WOA Improved yet, but I would guess about 2850 without the arduous task of case forming and trimming.
As I said, the Hagar brass is on contract with a reputable company now and expect that it will be done. However, I am not holding my breath until it's delivered as I have been down this road before. That's why it's nice to have a cartridge that uses popular brass like the WOA, WOA IMP, Rat, and the 6 AR. I remain optimistic.
JS
Ditto on all of what you said. I've been through it all as well. I will say that the Hornady brass is very high quality from what I have tested so far. That is one of the reasons for the WOA Improved.
Tank,
The velocity is surprisingly good considering the smaller capacity compared to the .243. Carl Bernosky gets about 2900 from the Hagar. I have not pushed it that hard. I was using .30 Rem brass whis was designed for for a much lower pressure cartridge. I have not push too hard on the WOA Improved yet, but I would guess about 2850 without the arduous task of case forming and trimming.
As I said, the Hagar brass is on contract with a reputable company now and expect that it will be done. However, I am not holding my breath until it's delivered as I have been down this road before. That's why it's nice to have a cartridge that uses popular brass like the WOA, WOA IMP, Rat, and the 6 AR. I remain optimistic.
JS
John,
I've got a WOA built upper in 6mmPDK. Has John mentioned what the difference in capacity for the WOA Improved is to the 6 PDK. I believe the PDK moves the shoulder forward a bit from the WOA and should be somewhere between the standard WOA and HAGAR. Not that there isn't a reason to have another cartridge to play with, but the WOA Improved looks a lot like the PDK.
Sounds like you are happy with the Hornady 6.8 brass. Is that small primer brass? I might try some when I wear out the 350 SSA brass that I neck turned this summer. Turns out John's 6PDK reamer doesn't play too well with the SSA 6.8 brass. Not enough room on the neck to make me comfortable and I saw a lot of neck thickness variation when I turned them.
I like the 6PDK. It's been very accurate and like the 6WOA is a simple neck down and shoot. I haven't done any load developement. I use 28gr Varget behind a molied 87gr Hornday BTSP for rapids and the same under a molied 105 Amax for 600. No idea on velocity but since I've turned the necks, the pressure looks fine.
Greg
I've got a WOA built upper in 6mmPDK. Has John mentioned what the difference in capacity for the WOA Improved is to the 6 PDK. I believe the PDK moves the shoulder forward a bit from the WOA and should be somewhere between the standard WOA and HAGAR. Not that there isn't a reason to have another cartridge to play with, but the WOA Improved looks a lot like the PDK.
Sounds like you are happy with the Hornady 6.8 brass. Is that small primer brass? I might try some when I wear out the 350 SSA brass that I neck turned this summer. Turns out John's 6PDK reamer doesn't play too well with the SSA 6.8 brass. Not enough room on the neck to make me comfortable and I saw a lot of neck thickness variation when I turned them.
I like the 6PDK. It's been very accurate and like the 6WOA is a simple neck down and shoot. I haven't done any load developement. I use 28gr Varget behind a molied 87gr Hornday BTSP for rapids and the same under a molied 105 Amax for 600. No idea on velocity but since I've turned the necks, the pressure looks fine.
Greg
Greg,
Since John is so busy turning out standard barrels for customers, I am the one who actually had the reamer made and will move forward on this project if it proves to be a successful and practical cartridge. The reason it's called a 6mm WOA Imp is because John and I have been friends for a long time and there really is no reason to have a completely different name for a cartridge since the standard WOA is already a good choice and somewhat known to the shooting community. John will however most likely buy a reamer and start chambering them as well if a customer requests it.
I know something about the PDK but not enough to be an expert. I did build a .22 PDK but could not get it to shoot up to snuff like I was able to get the .220 Thunderbolt (necked down version of the Hagar) to perform, so I abandoned the cartridge. Still have the reamers and may go down that road again one day.
Now to answer your question, the WOA Improved wil hold about 30 grains of powder and the shoulder is pushed forward a bit more than the PDK. The PDK uses a 30 degree shoulder, where the WOA Imp uses a 40. The real value that we need to find out is how many grains of water capacity the cartridge will hold. I will do that eventually.
I do like the Hornady brass. It seems to be very high quality and I like the small primer. One thing to mention though is the neck wall is pretty thick, about .014" per side. The reamer that I ordered has a .273" neck. Not much room for expansion, but there seems to be no problems with extraction so far. The Remington brass has a thinner neck wall and also works very well, however I am not hot about a large primer for any powder charge under 40 grains. I did try some SSA 6.8 brass when I was working on the .22 PDK earlier this year but lots of problems with the brass, so I had to send it all (1000 pieces) back to SSA for a refund. Not an easy task. With SSA brass, I experienced about 80% cracked necks and 100% shallow primer pockets where the primers would not seat flush with the case. 2 years ago, I did get some good brass from SSA, but they seem the have some substantial QC issues and large variation from one lot the the next from what I have experienced so far. The price was certainly right, but it just didn't work, so I guess ya get what ya pay for.
As far as loading and forming the WOA Imp brass, it is no different tham forming any of the PDK cartridges. I just run the 6.8 brass through the WOA Imp resize die which necks down the brass enough to make a false shoulder in order to headspace properly in the rifle. I plan on doing that for all of the short range loads until all of the brass is formed. Really, all I had to do was fire form 22 pieces of brass just so I had some 600 yard brass to load.
JS
Since John is so busy turning out standard barrels for customers, I am the one who actually had the reamer made and will move forward on this project if it proves to be a successful and practical cartridge. The reason it's called a 6mm WOA Imp is because John and I have been friends for a long time and there really is no reason to have a completely different name for a cartridge since the standard WOA is already a good choice and somewhat known to the shooting community. John will however most likely buy a reamer and start chambering them as well if a customer requests it.
I know something about the PDK but not enough to be an expert. I did build a .22 PDK but could not get it to shoot up to snuff like I was able to get the .220 Thunderbolt (necked down version of the Hagar) to perform, so I abandoned the cartridge. Still have the reamers and may go down that road again one day.
Now to answer your question, the WOA Improved wil hold about 30 grains of powder and the shoulder is pushed forward a bit more than the PDK. The PDK uses a 30 degree shoulder, where the WOA Imp uses a 40. The real value that we need to find out is how many grains of water capacity the cartridge will hold. I will do that eventually.
I do like the Hornady brass. It seems to be very high quality and I like the small primer. One thing to mention though is the neck wall is pretty thick, about .014" per side. The reamer that I ordered has a .273" neck. Not much room for expansion, but there seems to be no problems with extraction so far. The Remington brass has a thinner neck wall and also works very well, however I am not hot about a large primer for any powder charge under 40 grains. I did try some SSA 6.8 brass when I was working on the .22 PDK earlier this year but lots of problems with the brass, so I had to send it all (1000 pieces) back to SSA for a refund. Not an easy task. With SSA brass, I experienced about 80% cracked necks and 100% shallow primer pockets where the primers would not seat flush with the case. 2 years ago, I did get some good brass from SSA, but they seem the have some substantial QC issues and large variation from one lot the the next from what I have experienced so far. The price was certainly right, but it just didn't work, so I guess ya get what ya pay for.
As far as loading and forming the WOA Imp brass, it is no different tham forming any of the PDK cartridges. I just run the 6.8 brass through the WOA Imp resize die which necks down the brass enough to make a false shoulder in order to headspace properly in the rifle. I plan on doing that for all of the short range loads until all of the brass is formed. Really, all I had to do was fire form 22 pieces of brass just so I had some 600 yard brass to load.
JS
rcw3
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Neat concept cartridge and it will be fun for sure!
The Hornady brass is (in my opinion) about the best available for that cartridge, it has good consistency and is good QC wise, has a small primer pocket, a little thick in the neck like you indicate, but otherwise good and serviceable. The only negative is it is a little on the soft side. It's good brass for moderate loads but if you go too hot, the primer pockets will loosen fast.
That being said, I think your 6mm WOA Imp. will work out well and will be competitive for XTC use using the Hornady brass with moderate loads. For about 3 years now I have tinkered off and on with a near identical cartridge (i.e. a 6mm/6.8 SPC Imp. 40 with the shoulder blown forward as well) and it's been a fun cartridge to shoot and work with.
Good luck and shoot well.
Robert Whitley
The Hornady brass is (in my opinion) about the best available for that cartridge, it has good consistency and is good QC wise, has a small primer pocket, a little thick in the neck like you indicate, but otherwise good and serviceable. The only negative is it is a little on the soft side. It's good brass for moderate loads but if you go too hot, the primer pockets will loosen fast.
That being said, I think your 6mm WOA Imp. will work out well and will be competitive for XTC use using the Hornady brass with moderate loads. For about 3 years now I have tinkered off and on with a near identical cartridge (i.e. a 6mm/6.8 SPC Imp. 40 with the shoulder blown forward as well) and it's been a fun cartridge to shoot and work with.
Good luck and shoot well.
Robert Whitley
rcw3
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I am not sure how to answer that, especially since your set up may be somewhat different. Who knows, you may get more or less out of your set up. The one I set up has a neck around .200" long and was throated long for the 105 - 107 bullets with a rather mild throat angle. 2750 fps with the big bullets was getting up there pressure wise and 2800 fps was pushing it too hard for use day in and day out with the Hornady brass. I had some SSA brass that was hard and would hold pressure better but there were consistency and QC issues with that brass for me. With the Hagar I tested, it was an honest good shooting 2800 fps upper with the 105-108 gr bullets and the reformed Jamison 25 Remington brass (neck turned) but 2900 was "over the top" for pressure and accuracy wise for the one I had.
With all this stuff there's an element of subjectivity. For me the relevant chrono numbers are never what I consider the high end "red line" since that's kind of only telling me how far I can push things before they blow out the primer pocket or something else, but the realistic number for XTC use is where one can run 22 shots in a row down the pipe, without a break, and have the rifle stay sub .5 MOA and do it rain or shine, cold or hot, match after match, day after day. For me, that velocity number is typically a little more conservative.
That will be a fun and competitive cartridge - good luck and enjoy.
Robert
With all this stuff there's an element of subjectivity. For me the relevant chrono numbers are never what I consider the high end "red line" since that's kind of only telling me how far I can push things before they blow out the primer pocket or something else, but the realistic number for XTC use is where one can run 22 shots in a row down the pipe, without a break, and have the rifle stay sub .5 MOA and do it rain or shine, cold or hot, match after match, day after day. For me, that velocity number is typically a little more conservative.
That will be a fun and competitive cartridge - good luck and enjoy.
Robert
rcw3
Site $$ Sponsor
As a side note to my last posting, I have not found the AR-15 platform to be able to accurately and consistently shoot the 105-107 6mm bullets with any cartridge over about 2900 fps. The whole platform, in my opinion would need to be re- designed and beefed up for that situation. I have also worked with the 6BRX in the AR-15 and while you can push the velocity up to 3000 fps, I have never found the consistent accuracy up there, or even at 2950 fps, although at 2900 fps it started to pull in to be decent and consistent.
Robert
Robert
I know a lot of guys get pretty hung up on numbers from the chronograph. I think they have a preset velocity in mind and think that they MUST load to that velocity or it's not up to their standard. HA! I try to look at extreme spreads and the effects of pressure on the case. I also have to believe that there is some variation between all of the chronographs on the market, maybe not a lot, but some, maybe 5-10%.
In talking to Carl recently, he is reportedly able to get 3015 from the Hagar with a 105 Hornady. Seems kinda high, but the rifle sure does shoot a pile of x's without crashing and Carl is a very trust worthy souce. I don't expect that kind of velocity but I do have about that capacity.
What ever the results are, I sure do like to tinker with this stuff. Some people like go for long walks, I enjoy running the machines and making chips. It's kinda therapeutic and temporarily takes me to a place were all of my other responsibilities don't exist. It has been suggested to me to hang a shingle of my own, so I am considering it.
JS
In talking to Carl recently, he is reportedly able to get 3015 from the Hagar with a 105 Hornady. Seems kinda high, but the rifle sure does shoot a pile of x's without crashing and Carl is a very trust worthy souce. I don't expect that kind of velocity but I do have about that capacity.
What ever the results are, I sure do like to tinker with this stuff. Some people like go for long walks, I enjoy running the machines and making chips. It's kinda therapeutic and temporarily takes me to a place were all of my other responsibilities don't exist. It has been suggested to me to hang a shingle of my own, so I am considering it.
JS
rcw3
Site $$ Sponsor
Hagar has the case capacity of a basic 6BR (right around 37.5 - 38 gr of water weight) so I have a hard time accepting 3015 fps with the 105 gr bullets as that's just out of proportion with a cartridge that size and my experience with that cartridge. Yes for 3015 fps using his short line loads with the 75 gr bullets - or maybe with the 87's he told me he shoots at 300.
If there's a miracle, it's Carl that's more the miracle, and not necessarily the gun or cartridge he shoots. Any way you cut it though he's a heck of a nice guy and fun to be around and to talk with.
Robert
If there's a miracle, it's Carl that's more the miracle, and not necessarily the gun or cartridge he shoots. Any way you cut it though he's a heck of a nice guy and fun to be around and to talk with.
Robert
Robert,
I know that you have publicly cast doubt on the possibility of 3000 fps from a cartridge of this size, and I will admit that I have also leaned on the side of doubt as well due to my own experience with the Hagar until this morning...kind of.
Today I went to the range with my chronograph. A chronograph that has been tested against an Ohler ballistic lab for accuracy. I loaded a 107 Sierra to within 1.5 grains less than Carl's max test load with the same powder (N540) and yielded 2860 fps on a cold November morning. I know that is not 3000, but it ain't too far away. A half a grain at the top of the pressure curve is about 50 fps. I'm just not sure how hard I am leaning on doubt after today.
Also, with a rather mild load of AR Comp, I think it was 28 grains, I reached about 3100 with a 70 Sierra. As I said before, I do believe that there is a varying degree of difference between commercial hobby chronographs, but wow, I'll bet no one could have predicted today's AR performance 25 years ago.
JS
I know that you have publicly cast doubt on the possibility of 3000 fps from a cartridge of this size, and I will admit that I have also leaned on the side of doubt as well due to my own experience with the Hagar until this morning...kind of.
Today I went to the range with my chronograph. A chronograph that has been tested against an Ohler ballistic lab for accuracy. I loaded a 107 Sierra to within 1.5 grains less than Carl's max test load with the same powder (N540) and yielded 2860 fps on a cold November morning. I know that is not 3000, but it ain't too far away. A half a grain at the top of the pressure curve is about 50 fps. I'm just not sure how hard I am leaning on doubt after today.
Also, with a rather mild load of AR Comp, I think it was 28 grains, I reached about 3100 with a 70 Sierra. As I said before, I do believe that there is a varying degree of difference between commercial hobby chronographs, but wow, I'll bet no one could have predicted today's AR performance 25 years ago.
JS
Westex
Gold $$ Contributor
I built a wildcat AR15 , it is a 30AR Remington case necked down to 6mm with a 37 degree shoulder . It has a 26" Bartlein barrel 8 twist . I have been getting 2900 fps with 107 SMK's with H4350 powder. I don't have a bench any futher than 100 yds so I really have not got a chance to really do any LR testing. I am using a Bushmaster 450 clip for now and it really feeds like butter. I only can get 4 rounds in it . They are a center feed clip . The accuracy has been very good with 95 Bergers and 107 SMK's . I did try some 65 grain bergers in it and they shot very good also velocity was 3600 fps with the light bullets. I am going to build a bolt version of this round as soon as I get another lathe, I sold mine this summer and I am still looking for one. Good shooting ! Mark
Mark,
That's really interesting. I have been very curious about the .30 Rem AR. Do yo think you can provide a picture of the bolt carrier assy and the bbl extension?
The only problem that I can see as it pertains to the type of shooting that I participate in (position shooting) is being able to get enough rounds in a mag and maintain a low profile mag length and still shoot 8 rounds from one mag. It uses a .473 head diameter right??
What kind of powder capacity will the case hold?
JS
That's really interesting. I have been very curious about the .30 Rem AR. Do yo think you can provide a picture of the bolt carrier assy and the bbl extension?
The only problem that I can see as it pertains to the type of shooting that I participate in (position shooting) is being able to get enough rounds in a mag and maintain a low profile mag length and still shoot 8 rounds from one mag. It uses a .473 head diameter right??
What kind of powder capacity will the case hold?
JS
Westex
Gold $$ Contributor
Sure just shoot me a email and I will get some pics. I used the Bolt and barrel extension from Ar15 Performance. I had to open up the bolt face to accept the larger rim of the 30 AR case. I think AR 15 performance may have some pics of the bolt and extension on there website. Thanks! Mark
John,
I know your into the wildcatting part of match rifles but I just wanted to say that for those that aren't Whitley's uppers are great. I tried to get a 6br going and load after load was always over pressure, I went to moly and still over pressure, I had to back off so bad it wasn't gaining anything over a 223.
I've had a 6turbo upper sitting for a bit while I tried this 6br thing so I just loaded it with H4895 off the website. First shot at 600 was an X, followed by 16 more 10/x's. 196-8x first time out and the only reason for the lost points was my position faded at the end. The was also the first time I had shot a match rifle at 600.
For people more into shooting than reloading his product is great,
A non-compensated happy customer.
I know your into the wildcatting part of match rifles but I just wanted to say that for those that aren't Whitley's uppers are great. I tried to get a 6br going and load after load was always over pressure, I went to moly and still over pressure, I had to back off so bad it wasn't gaining anything over a 223.
I've had a 6turbo upper sitting for a bit while I tried this 6br thing so I just loaded it with H4895 off the website. First shot at 600 was an X, followed by 16 more 10/x's. 196-8x first time out and the only reason for the lost points was my position faded at the end. The was also the first time I had shot a match rifle at 600.
For people more into shooting than reloading his product is great,
A non-compensated happy customer.
Hey, I know you've done it enough to know what you can do with that rim size and the bolt just let me know if you need a bolt with that size face, I'll cut it before heat treat... we'll both feel better about it.Westex said:
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