AR-15 .223/5.65 loading?

[Quadragger]

Need to know which die to buy. Will be loading both the .223 & 5.65 brass. Will a standerd FL die work or will I need a special die for this?

 

[gilream]

I am new to loading for the AR's as well and look forward to some comments to your question. I have secured several different powders, a few hundred primers, plenty of once fired military brass but no bullets yet. The cases have been cleaned, polished, deprimed and the primer pockets swaged with the RCBS swaging die. I have an old Pacific Tool and Die Co. .223 FL die set but I will not FL size until I get the RCBS small base die that has been on order for about a week.

 

[bigedp51]

A standard Full Length die will work fine as long as your not reloading military cases that were fired in a M249 Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW) maching gun. Cases fired in the M249 will need to be resized once with a small base die and there after a standard full length die will be fine.

The chamber of the AR15 is .002 larger in diameter than a .223 and small base dies should not be needed.



Below SAAMI manufacturing tolerances for the .223 case, please note min and max diameter verses the AR chamber diameter. Meaning a standard full length dia will make the cases small enough in base diameter.

 

[Caliche Pit]

I load around five thousand 223's for AR-15's at the very minimum every year on one of my Super 1050's. I also pick up once fired range brass and use it for ball ammo loads, nothing competition oriented. If you plan on using multiple types of brass in a loading session, it would be a good idea to load with a small base die, just to be safe. Just my 2 cents.

 

[jhord]

More than likely a std. .223 die will work, but it all depends what reamer was used and how they used it. I have one service rifle barrel (RRA) that has enough room in the chamber to fit any old .223/5.56 round plus a small rodent. I have another service rifle barrel (Fulton/Criterion) that is really tight and I have to use a small base die for reliable functioning. It just all depends.

 

[mac86951]

Do you have some fired brass from your rifle? You can measure the base and know for certain, however, I'd stick with a standard die and only switch to small base if you have feeding issues.

-Mac

 

[spclark]

Where'd your AR come from? If it's a 'standard' 1:9 twist & not something made specifically for CMP/NRA Service Rifle competition (20" barrel, as fast as 1:6 but more likely 1:7, 1:7.5 or 1:8 twist) a standard .223 FL die'll work fine.

Bumping the shoulder back too far is the one thing easiest to to do that'll shorten the useful lifespan of your cases. 0.005" is plenty, if you can get by with 0.003 or less so much the better.

This practice leads to excessive case stretch & eventually case head separation, where the front portion of a case stays in the chamber after the back portion gets ejected. You'll know when it happens, particularly if you're shooting 'rapid fire' when your rifle jams with the bolt half-way to the chamber against a live round jammed into the piece of broken brass left behind.

Do a search for 'broken case extractor' to find a cheap & effective tool for getting the stuck case front out.

 

[Phil3]

I would use a standard die. If there are feeding problems (due to insufficiently sized case), then you can try the small based die. No point in sizing the case down any more than you have to, and don't think you will need to.

Phil

 

[gilream]

Do you have some fired brass from your rifle? You can measure the base and know for certain, however, I'd stick with a standard die and only switch to small base if you have feeding issues.

-Mac

Mac...I have plenty of fired brass to measure. I assume that the most important points to measure are just in front of the web area and the body/shoulder junction? I will measure some of the LC'12 brass that i fired the other day (green tip) as well as some once fired military brass that i have cleaned up prior to sizing.

BTW...my Rock River Elite Operator II has a 5.56 NATO chamber and not the Wylde chamber.

 

[gilream]

More than likely a std. .223 die will work, but it all depends what reamer was used and how they used it. I have one service rifle barrel (RRA) that has enough room in the chamber to fit any old .223/5.56 round plus a small rodent. I have another service rifle barrel (Fulton/Criterion) that is really tight and I have to use a small base die for reliable functioning. It just all depends.

I am going to measure some brass fired from my 5.56 NATO chamber and will get back to you. Hoping I won't find the rodent syndrome!

 

[Multitoes]

For what it is worth, I always measure the headspace of a couple of cases after I set the die and make sure they drop freely into my AR chamber(s).
This always has worked for me and no feeding problems.

 

[gilream]

Do you have some fired brass from your rifle? You can measure the base and know for certain, however, I'd stick with a standard die and only switch to small base if you have feeding issues.

-Mac

Mac...
Earlier we were discussing the need for a small base die (I have had one on order for over a week) and someone suggested that I measure some fired cases. I also resized some once fired military LC cases with my old Pacific FL die set. I hope that I can present these measurements of the case bases where they make sense to you guys. I use a 1” mitutoyo micrometer with the ratchet thimble. Measurements were taken with the leading edge of the measuring post on the case body just above the extractor groove. Also, I used a mic. stand.

Factory Loads New Fired in my AR
Lake City ’12 (green tip) .3732 .3748
Winchester 5.56 (white box) .3730 .3750
Fiocchi 77gr. SMK .3735 .3745

Resized with my FL die
Lake City once fired military .3735

I get more sizing at the base of the case the farther that I set the shoulder back. A setback of .005 looks about right. It’s sometimes frustrating to measure the shoulder bump because the AR buggers up some of the case heads and it's hard to get the case head to sit flat against the caliper blade. (I use the caliper mounted Stoney Point (now Hornady L&L) head space gauge.)

Do these numbers look consistent with what you guys know to be true?

It looks as though I should be OK with the standard FL die Right? That is until I let one slip by that hasn't been sized enough.

Mike

 

[Phil3]

I'll chime in here, since I own an AR-15 and am just starting to reload for it. Hopefully you will find some peace of mind with what I found in my measurements. I used a micrometer as well, but not a mic stand, but believe my measurements are good. I used a Redding full length (FL) sizing die in my measurements.

To summarize:

Your new brass: .3733 (on average).
Fired brass: .3748 (on average). Growth of .0015.
Resized brass: .3735. Shrinkage from "fired" of .013. .0002" larger than new.

My new brass: .3731 (on average).
Fired brass: .3741 (on average). Growth of .0010.
Resized brass: .3740: Shrinkage from "fired" of .0001. .0009" larger than new.

I do not honestly know how tight case to wall clearance can be in an AR, but I will test chamber my rounds to make sure they load reliably.

To help with consistency on measuring OAL on cases and cartridges (either OAL or to ogive), I use this.

http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-equipment/measuring-tools/bullet-comparators/davidson-seating-depth-base-pieces-prod33946.aspx


Phil

 

[gilream]

I'll chime in here, since I own an AR-15 and am just starting to reload for it. Hopefully you will find some peace of mind with what I found in my measurements. I used a micrometer as well, but not a mic stand, but believe my measurements are good. I used a Redding full length (FL) sizing die in my measurements.

To summarize:

Your new brass: .3733 (on average).
Fired brass: .3748 (on average). Growth of .0015.
Resized brass: .3735. Shrinkage from "fired" of .013. .0002" larger than new.

My new brass: .3731 (on average).
Fired brass: .3741 (on average). Growth of .0010.
Resized brass: .3740: Shrinkage from "fired" of .0001. .0009" larger than new.

I do not honestly know how tight case to wall clearance can be in an AR, but I will test chamber my rounds to make sure they load reliably.

To help with consistency on measuring OAL on cases and cartridges (either OAL or to ogive), I use this.

http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-equipment/measuring-tools/bullet-comparators/davidson-seating-depth-base-pieces-prod33946.aspx


Phil

That Davidson caliper clip on that holds the base looks pretty handy. Using it would eliminate the error caused by the slight primer bulge that i see from time to time.

It would appear that your die setting is barely touching the case base area and doing very little sizing. How far are you bumping the shoulders on fired cases?

 

[bigedp51]

In 46 years of reloading I have never needed a small base die, a full length .223 die is designed for a SAAMI chamber, a full .002 smaller in diameter than a AR15 chamber. (can vary with reamers)

If you don't need a small base die for your bolt action .223, WHY would you need a small base die for your AR15, when it has a chamber .002 larger in diameter.

Military type chambers are fatter and longer than civilian SAAMI chambers, a civilian SAAMI small base die can shorten your case life by over resizing your brass.

Below is a Remington .223 case fired in one of my AR15 rifles, the case pictured below has expanded in the LARGER military chamber and will not even drop down into the gauge because it is hitting the sides of my Wilson gauge.



They do not make 5.56 or 7.62 resizing dies and both these chambers are .002 larger in diameter than SAAMI .223 or .308 chamber dimensions.

It is a mistake to automatically assume you need small base dies because of internet rumors. Buy a standard full length .223 die and measure your cases before and after firing and see where you stand.

And remember Military cases are made harder than civilian SAAMI standards and you "MIGHT" need a small base die if your loading commercial .223 cases to military pressures.





I have a Redding .223 small base die and NEVER use it and I'm loading for three different manufactures of AR15 rifles. (DPMS, PSA, S&W)

I'm reloading three five gallon buckets of Federal, Lake City and Remington once fired range pickup brass, fired by our local SWAT teams at practice with dozens of different AR rifles. I have NOT needed the use of a small base die and in most cases it will over work your brass. Remember, less is more.

 

[gilream]

biged...thank you for your reply. I appreciate your charts & photos 'cause a picture is worth 1000 ...you know.

My measurements validate everything that you have said. I believe that I am getting plenty of sizing at the base of my cases both commercial and military. I'm might cancel my small base die order and put that money toward a nice seating die instead.

 

[mac86951]

Do you have some fired brass from your rifle? You can measure the base and know for certain, however, I'd stick with a standard die and only switch to small base if you have feeding issues.

-Mac

Mac...
Earlier we were discussing the need for a small base die (I have had one on order for over a week) and someone suggested that I measure some fired cases. I also resized some once fired military LC cases with my old Pacific FL die set. I hope that I can present these measurements of the case bases where they make sense to you guys. I use a 1” mitutoyo micrometer with the ratchet thimble. Measurements were taken with the leading edge of the measuring post on the case body just above the extractor groove. Also, I used a mic. stand.

Factory Loads New Fired in my AR
Lake City ’12 (green tip) .3732 .3748
Winchester 5.56 (white box) .3730 .3750
Fiocchi 77gr. SMK .3735 .3745

Resized with my FL die
Lake City once fired military .3735

I get more sizing at the base of the case the farther that I set the shoulder back. A setback of .005 looks about right. It’s sometimes frustrating to measure the shoulder bump because the AR buggers up some of the case heads and it's hard to get the case head to sit flat against the caliper blade. (I use the caliper mounted Stoney Point (now Hornady L&L) head space gauge.)

Do these numbers look consistent with what you guys know to be true?

It looks as though I should be OK with the standard FL die Right? That is until I let one slip by that hasn't been sized enough.

Mike

RCBS states that the small-base dies will resize the cases to SAAMI minimum, which depending on brass and how likely everyone sets up the die, I would have to think that they mean SAAMI minimum at most, or that some brass might be a little below that.

They state that the small base dies are to enhance extraction from lever-action and semiautomatic firearms.

That said, I and many many others have never needed small-base dies for our AR. I don't shoot 3-gun, I shoot slow-fire MR F-Class, and I've never needed it, nor have many others. If you have a 5.56 chamber, then the .223 dies are already a "small-base" for you so you don't need them. I don't know of any (or many) AR's with a standard .223 chamber, but I could see a potential issue with the 100rnd mag and fast fire in the .223 chamber which might cause feeding/extracting issues, but again, I haven't heard of extraction issues in an AR that were resolved only with a small-base die. Usually the gas timing was off and that was the main issue.

Do you need small base dies for your AR? Nope.

What are small-base dies for? Well I'm guessing it was a solution to an earlier problem as many .223/5.56/Wylde reamers are out there for various custom rifles. I have yet to hear from someone that needs a small-base die. I'll clarify, I also didn't know anyone made a .223 lever-action either until I googled it. Good thing it doesn't use a tube-magazine...

After measuring your fired brass, and resized brass, you certainly don't need a small-base die.

One point I will make out for AR sizing, is not in circumferential sizing of the brass, but in case-head to shoulder datum length. Don't follow the listed "1/8 to 1/4 turn past touching the shell-holder" for setting up the sizing die, that will work, but also most likely overwork the brass. (length-wise). John Feamster a well known high-power shooter recommends bumping the shoulder back ~0.004" on resizing to assist in feeding/chambering. That I'll agree with, and I've had good results so far (12 loading and still going).

I measure my brass before and after (to set up the die) using the RCBS Precision Mic, but there are other tools as well and they all work just fine as long as the user learns to properly use it.

gilream, it sounds as if you are new to reloading for your AR, I'll point you to another "pressure sign" that you might see well before pierced primers or craters, etc... Depending on powder burn rates, bullet weights, and how your rifle was built the gas-system might try to extract the brass a little early, before it has shrunk from the case walls. You'll see this:

http://www.shootingillustrated.com/index.php/8720/case-head-swipe/

If you do, try a slower powder/lighter charge. It eats up brass quickly and is the suspect for why I believe others are using a "small-base" die for their AR.


-Mac

 

[gilream]

Thank You Mac...

 

[bigedp51]

On AR15 and M1A rifles that are over gassed the bolt can move to the rear while there is still pressure in the barrel. This can cause the case to become "LONGER" than the chamber and measuring the cartridge headspace length can give you a false reading. As the bolt moves to the rear the residual chamber pressure will "push" the cases shoulder forward as it exits the chamber. Meaning when full length resizing the shoulder of the case is not pushed back far enough due to incorrect/false case shoulder measurements.

This leads many people into thinking that they need a small base die when the resized cases are actually "too long" to chamber properly.

I had an uncle who used small base dies on his Remington 760 pump 30-06 and he was plagued with case head separations. I had a hard time convincing him to switch to standard full length resizing dies, but when he did he stopped having case head separations. You can shorten case life by pushing the case shoulder back too far and aggravate even further by making the base of the case too small when it has to expand outward all over again.

As an example below these .308 cases were full length resized over and over until they failed. These cases were resized with the die making hard contact with the shell holder or cam over. Also these cases were fired in a .308 bolt action rifle with a standard SAAMI chamber that is smaller than a military chamber in diameter and headspace length.





If a small base die had been used with the cases above they would have failed much sooner because the die over worked the brass.

 

[Phil3]

I'll chime in here, since I own an AR-15 and am just starting to reload for it. Hopefully you will find some peace of mind with what I found in my measurements. I used a micrometer as well, but not a mic stand, but believe my measurements are good. I used a Redding full length (FL) sizing die in my measurements.

To summarize:

Your new brass: .3733 (on average).
Fired brass: .3748 (on average). Growth of .0015.
Resized brass: .3735. Shrinkage from "fired" of .013. .0002" larger than new.

My new brass: .3731 (on average).
Fired brass: .3741 (on average). Growth of .0010.
Resized brass: .3740: Shrinkage from "fired" of .0001. .0009" larger than new.

I do not honestly know how tight case to wall clearance can be in an AR, but I will test chamber my rounds to make sure they load reliably.

To help with consistency on measuring OAL on cases and cartridges (either OAL or to ogive), I use this.

http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-equipment/measuring-tools/bullet-comparators/davidson-seating-depth-base-pieces-prod33946.aspx


Phil

That Davidson caliper clip on that holds the base looks pretty handy. Using it would eliminate the error caused by the slight primer bulge that i see from time to time.

It would appear that your die setting is barely touching the case base area and doing very little sizing. How far are you bumping the shoulders on fired cases?

The Davidson piece is handy, BUT...

I felt that the case heads were anything but flat or square with the case, given the various readings I got when measuring the same case when rotated from one position to another. I did not think my measuring skills were that inconsistent. I found that with the AR, there can be burrs on the case head edge, which can interfere with the case sitting cleanly in the Davidson piece. I just use a small stone to knock these off to ensure measuring consistency.

Still, there was some inconsistency I thought when rotating the case and measuring in different places. Sometimes, this would vary by as much as .002", enough to cause concern when looking at setting shoulders back within thousandths of an inch.

I did a test. I used a Sinclair case holder that is used in the Sinclair case trimmer. This holder is round and holds the case square so the case can be trimmed. I put the case holder in my lathe and then inserted a case. Using a Mitutoyo dial test indicator, I measure the runout on the head stamp end of the case. Yes, there is stamped lettering which the indicator end travels over, but it is not enough to disrupt the overall findings. The best case out of 10 tested was .0015". The worst was .0035". The latter is the equivalent of having a surface as flat as a potato chip. How one is supposed to set up a die to bump the shoulder back a specific amount when measurements on the case are +/- a couple thousandths is going to be a challenge.

Since my last message, I decided to work only with the Winchester brass I intend to use. I had to adjust the die downwards a bit more to get the amount of shoulder set back I want. Using my measurement setup (Sinclair tool and insert), my once fired brass shoulder-to-head distance averages 1.4293. I have adjusted my Redding die so it is bumping the shoulder to 1.4255 - 1.4250, or an average setback of .004". The bottom of the Winchester case shrinks from .3748 to .3742. .0001 measurements can not be guaranteed, so figure a half a thou to .001 shrinkage.

I don't understand why screwing the die down any further would cause additional shoulder setback since it is already contacting the Forster Co-Ax shell holder in a higher position. But, apparently it does.

One other thing. My AR uses a Krieger barrel chambered in 223 Remington, NOT for 5.56. I should ask them exactly what reamer they used.

Phil