I have a Professional Ordnance R97s M4 variant. I got a good deal on this rifle and had to take the seller up o the offer. A few months later I somehow managed to crack the bolt. At this time I found out that the professional ordnance design used some strange chrome-moly alloy in their bolts which made them comparably weaker. They also used rounded bolt lugs versus the standard squared lugs on all other AR-15s. I had bushmaster swap my barrel, barrel insert and bolt to the standard variation. The other difference lies in the stock which is a quick disconnect. The rear buffer spring is actually housed inside a piece that screws into the rear of the lower receiver that the stock fits over. Some people have told me that this lower will not accept other uppers because of this. I was wondering if this is true or if anyone knows that other uppers would be able to be used with this lower receiver? I am new to black rifles. Thanks!
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Anyone familiar with Professional Ordnance / Bushmaster R97s Carbon Rifle
- Thread starter SeanAce1
- Start date
Spotcheck_Billy
Just get rid of it - and be done with the grief both past and future. If you like AR's,and I do) get yourself a conventional model from one of the reputable manufacturers and go from there.
Well I got a good deal on the gun, but i had to pay 3200 bucks to change the barrel and bolt over, its pretty much new, and I do like the design of it and the lightness of it, Bushmaster is not a non-reputable name in my mind. But I would take a loss getting rid of it, I would rather just keep it. If I can put a different upper on it that would be awesome, but if not I will probably just try to pick up a DPMS or Rock River somewhere. Anyone hear anything good.bad about Rob Arms?
Spotcheck_Billy
SeanAce1 said:Well I got a good deal on the gun, but i had to pay 3200 bucks to change the barrel and bolt over, its pretty much new, and I do like the design of it and the lightness of it, Bushmaster is not a non-reputable name in my mind. But I would take a loss getting rid of it, I would rather just keep it. If I can put a different upper on it that would be awesome, but if not I will probably just try to pick up a DPMS or Rock River somewhere. Anyone hear anything good.bad about Rob Arms?
"3200 bucks"? That's got to be a typo!
Spotcheck_Billy
Sean, when you asked about "Rob Arms" do you mean Robinson Arms?
Perhaps I can be a little more specific about the Carbon 15. Professional Ordnance was the original manufacturer. The carbon AR style firearms produced by Professional were plagued with problems, both in quality control and in materials failure. Due to these and other problems within the company Professional Ordnance sold their design, tooling, parts inventory, etc. to Bushmaster. Bushmaster then introduced several important changes intended to improve the breed when they began production of their version.
As I understand it Bushmaster will repair any of its Carbon 15 firearms while under warranty at no charge to the owner, but not the Professional Ordnance built versions. They will charge the owner for working on the non-Bushmaster firearms. The synthetic material that comprises the upper and lower housings is prone to crack and/or warp rendering them unuseable. Standard AR platform uppers will not drop into the Professional Ordnance built carbon lowers. I heard by word-of-mouth that standard AR uppers will drop into the Bushmaster produced Carbon 15 lowers, but I've never tried it myself.
Generally, the AR community regards the Carbon 15-style firearms as an interesting permutation good for plinking, home defense, and casual varmint shooting at relatively close range. It is not considered a viable platform to consider for accuracy build, and accuracy is what this site is all about. The Professional Ordnance versions of the Carbon 15 do not retain a decent resale value on the used market. That's probably why such "good deals" can be found on them. My advice is not to throw good money after bad. Use it for what it's intended to be used for and just have fun with it.
I've got lots of conventional AR experience, having built well over one hundred from the ground up and having repaired and serviced hundreds more, but my hands-on experience with the Carbon 15 has been limited to zero by choice. If any of my above comments are inaccurate, or just plain wrong please feel free to correct me, as I'm always willing to rectify my mistakes and relish any opportunity to expand my knowledge of the genre.
Perhaps I can be a little more specific about the Carbon 15. Professional Ordnance was the original manufacturer. The carbon AR style firearms produced by Professional were plagued with problems, both in quality control and in materials failure. Due to these and other problems within the company Professional Ordnance sold their design, tooling, parts inventory, etc. to Bushmaster. Bushmaster then introduced several important changes intended to improve the breed when they began production of their version.
As I understand it Bushmaster will repair any of its Carbon 15 firearms while under warranty at no charge to the owner, but not the Professional Ordnance built versions. They will charge the owner for working on the non-Bushmaster firearms. The synthetic material that comprises the upper and lower housings is prone to crack and/or warp rendering them unuseable. Standard AR platform uppers will not drop into the Professional Ordnance built carbon lowers. I heard by word-of-mouth that standard AR uppers will drop into the Bushmaster produced Carbon 15 lowers, but I've never tried it myself.
Generally, the AR community regards the Carbon 15-style firearms as an interesting permutation good for plinking, home defense, and casual varmint shooting at relatively close range. It is not considered a viable platform to consider for accuracy build, and accuracy is what this site is all about. The Professional Ordnance versions of the Carbon 15 do not retain a decent resale value on the used market. That's probably why such "good deals" can be found on them. My advice is not to throw good money after bad. Use it for what it's intended to be used for and just have fun with it.
I've got lots of conventional AR experience, having built well over one hundred from the ground up and having repaired and serviced hundreds more, but my hands-on experience with the Carbon 15 has been limited to zero by choice. If any of my above comments are inaccurate, or just plain wrong please feel free to correct me, as I'm always willing to rectify my mistakes and relish any opportunity to expand my knowledge of the genre.
Yes, that was a typo, It was going to cost me 300 but Bushmaster dropped the price to 200 when they ordered the wrong parts and took a few weeks too long to return the upper. I have thought about selling the gun, but I doubt I would get what I put into it. Ive only put about 150 rounds through the lower so far, maybe 50 through the new barrel using the new bolt and carrier, but my total cost is around 800 dollars still.
What does a simple platform from a place like Rock River run anyways? Would it be cheaper or better in any way to buy a lower and upper separate?
What does a simple platform from a place like Rock River run anyways? Would it be cheaper or better in any way to buy a lower and upper separate?
Spotcheck_Billy
Sean,
It is generally cheaper to buy an upper and a lower seperately if only because you wont have to pay the Federal Excise Tax as you would on a complete rifle which is around 15% IIRC. The pitfall is that you won't get an assembled rifle that has been accuracy and function tested. You'll also have to pay for them to be shipped individually, as shipping the units together constitutes a complete firearm and is therefore subject to the FET. No big deal to some, important to others.
First things first! You should decide just what kind of an AR you want. Match rifle, heavy varmint, lightweight stalker, etc. Then decide if any of the factory offerings will suit you. If not, you'll have to go to a custom builder if you can't,or don't) want to put one together yourself.
As an example, go to RRA's website and have a look at the many different builds that they offer along with the large amount of options available on every build. A case in point would be their A4 Varmint Rifle which goes for $1075. If you can find something that suits you you can order directly. You'll pay the retail price and probably have to wait for them to build it. An alternative would be to either go online and look for a dealer who may have what you're looking for in stock and might discount the price. You could also go to the Shotgun News,wallyworld carries it) and check out the ads until you find what you're looking for.
If you can't find what you want from one of the manufacturers you could go to one of the custom builders like John Holliger of White Oak Precision, Frank White of Compass Lake Engineering, or Bill Wylde for example, or one of the other reputable builders. They offer custom builds that go beyond what you can expect from the factory builds. You'll wind up paying more but you'll get exactly what you want and have a real custom built rifle.
Most important thing is for you do do all of the research that you can before you plunk down your money to be sure that you get what you really want.
It is generally cheaper to buy an upper and a lower seperately if only because you wont have to pay the Federal Excise Tax as you would on a complete rifle which is around 15% IIRC. The pitfall is that you won't get an assembled rifle that has been accuracy and function tested. You'll also have to pay for them to be shipped individually, as shipping the units together constitutes a complete firearm and is therefore subject to the FET. No big deal to some, important to others.
First things first! You should decide just what kind of an AR you want. Match rifle, heavy varmint, lightweight stalker, etc. Then decide if any of the factory offerings will suit you. If not, you'll have to go to a custom builder if you can't,or don't) want to put one together yourself.
As an example, go to RRA's website and have a look at the many different builds that they offer along with the large amount of options available on every build. A case in point would be their A4 Varmint Rifle which goes for $1075. If you can find something that suits you you can order directly. You'll pay the retail price and probably have to wait for them to build it. An alternative would be to either go online and look for a dealer who may have what you're looking for in stock and might discount the price. You could also go to the Shotgun News,wallyworld carries it) and check out the ads until you find what you're looking for.
If you can't find what you want from one of the manufacturers you could go to one of the custom builders like John Holliger of White Oak Precision, Frank White of Compass Lake Engineering, or Bill Wylde for example, or one of the other reputable builders. They offer custom builds that go beyond what you can expect from the factory builds. You'll wind up paying more but you'll get exactly what you want and have a real custom built rifle.
Most important thing is for you do do all of the research that you can before you plunk down your money to be sure that you get what you really want.
As far as purchasing an AR is concerned, I live in the state of MD and the only AR you can buy as an unregulated is a Colt AR-15 H-Bar Sporter. Now, the serialized part of the weapon is the lower receiver, are lower receivers individually considered regulated, or can they transfer as a long gun?
Spotcheck_Billy
SeanAce1 said:As far as purchasing an AR is concerned, I live in the state of MD and the only AR you can buy as an unregulated is a Colt AR-15 H-Bar Sporter. Now, the serialized part of the weapon is the lower receiver, are lower receivers individually considered regulated, or can they transfer as a long gun?
Sean,
What's the big deal about regulated? Regulated just looks like an extra fee and a waiting period! I don't live in the Peoples Republic of Maryland so I'm not too keen on the finer points of their gun laws.
Rather than me trying to get into a long post about your state and the AR15 why don't you go to this site and get the info right from the horse's mouth -
http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite
Go to the home page, then scroll down the left side until you see "The AR15 And The Law". Click on that and scroll down for a good explanation of the Maryland laws pertaining to the AR.
Forrest Platt,the site administrator) knows exactly what he's talking about. You can take what he says to the bank.
Cool thanks a lot, lot of good info there but one of his law definitions is wrong actually..
"State Police consider any rifle with an HBAR barrel,like the Bushmaster) to be identical. Note: the State Police have indicated HBAR Bushmasters are NOT considered 'regulated' - they are treated like the HBAR Colts. As such you are not required to have a 'safety class' to purchase one. Most dealers don't know this and don't bother to check it out,so expect to pay the fee, wait the time, and take the 'class')."
I sell firearms for an FFL on the eastern shore, and according to the local ATF liaison and MD State Police, the HBAR exception only pertains to the Colt model itself, all bushmasters and other variants, HBAR or not, are considered regulated now.
I think I might go with a Rock River and build from there, it seems to be generally accepted as one of the best out there. Any preferences in the chambers? SAAMI, M16 or Wylde, I havent heard anything about this Wylde chamber as of yet.
"State Police consider any rifle with an HBAR barrel,like the Bushmaster) to be identical. Note: the State Police have indicated HBAR Bushmasters are NOT considered 'regulated' - they are treated like the HBAR Colts. As such you are not required to have a 'safety class' to purchase one. Most dealers don't know this and don't bother to check it out,so expect to pay the fee, wait the time, and take the 'class')."
I sell firearms for an FFL on the eastern shore, and according to the local ATF liaison and MD State Police, the HBAR exception only pertains to the Colt model itself, all bushmasters and other variants, HBAR or not, are considered regulated now.
I think I might go with a Rock River and build from there, it seems to be generally accepted as one of the best out there. Any preferences in the chambers? SAAMI, M16 or Wylde, I havent heard anything about this Wylde chamber as of yet.
Spotcheck_Billy
Sean,
You're probably aware that BATF regulations are subject to interpretation by their local offices so enforcement is subject to change according to the whims of the local agent-in-charge. So what holds true in Montgomery Co., for example, might not be acceptable across the Bay in Wicomico Co. I regularly shoot with a Class III and Class II manufacturers licence holder,a good friend) who has gone through this quite a few times. As far as BATF interpretations are concerned the only way to be safe is to request a confirmation letter from their hdq. in DC. We've done this in the past, much to the chagrin of their local agent who was then forced to alter his perspective on decisions he previously made. Can't offer any comments on how the MD State Cops handle their own can of worms however.
Anyway, getting to your question on the chambers -
A SAAMI .223 chamber can be considered to be,sometimes) dangerous if true GI-spec 5.56 ammo is used. Tighter throat dimensions can cause excessive pressures when shooting GI-spec 5.56 ammo in a SAAMI chamber, although many shooters get away with it all of the time. SAAMI strongly recommends that only .223 ammo should be fired in a SAAMI-spec chamber. If you try to load one of the long heavy bullets in a SAAMI chamber it'll probably have to be seated so deeply that it intrudes into the powder space of the cartridge case.
A 5.56,M16 spec) chamber will allow you to shoot any ammo, but they're so long throated with an overly large freebore that you'll never be able to get close to the lands with many,or most?) bullets, especially when loaded to magazine length. It's a great chamber for shooters who burn up a lot of surplus ammo but also use .223 SAAMI ammo on occasion.
The Wylde chamber was developed by Bill Wylde, a noted AR builder, to overcome these problems. Bill's design narrows the freebore and has a leade angle that alows the 80 gr. SMK to touch the lands at a 2.465" OAL for single round feeding, yet still maintain excellent accuracy with a 69 gr. SMK loaded to an OAL of 2.260" for magazine feeding.
Hardly any of the big AR manufacturers use the .223 SAAMI chamber any more. Their standard offerings are normally stamped 5.56 and use the GI-spec chamber, while most of them are using the Wylde chamber,or a variation) for their varmint and other accuracy models, even if they're stamped .223!. Of course, many true custom AR 'smiths have their reamers cut to their own specific design and if you're getting into that you're best off discussing chamber specs directly with them. I highly recommend the Wylde chamber unless you're going for a full blown custom made for a specific purpose and a specific bullet style.
You're probably aware that BATF regulations are subject to interpretation by their local offices so enforcement is subject to change according to the whims of the local agent-in-charge. So what holds true in Montgomery Co., for example, might not be acceptable across the Bay in Wicomico Co. I regularly shoot with a Class III and Class II manufacturers licence holder,a good friend) who has gone through this quite a few times. As far as BATF interpretations are concerned the only way to be safe is to request a confirmation letter from their hdq. in DC. We've done this in the past, much to the chagrin of their local agent who was then forced to alter his perspective on decisions he previously made. Can't offer any comments on how the MD State Cops handle their own can of worms however.
Anyway, getting to your question on the chambers -
A SAAMI .223 chamber can be considered to be,sometimes) dangerous if true GI-spec 5.56 ammo is used. Tighter throat dimensions can cause excessive pressures when shooting GI-spec 5.56 ammo in a SAAMI chamber, although many shooters get away with it all of the time. SAAMI strongly recommends that only .223 ammo should be fired in a SAAMI-spec chamber. If you try to load one of the long heavy bullets in a SAAMI chamber it'll probably have to be seated so deeply that it intrudes into the powder space of the cartridge case.
A 5.56,M16 spec) chamber will allow you to shoot any ammo, but they're so long throated with an overly large freebore that you'll never be able to get close to the lands with many,or most?) bullets, especially when loaded to magazine length. It's a great chamber for shooters who burn up a lot of surplus ammo but also use .223 SAAMI ammo on occasion.
The Wylde chamber was developed by Bill Wylde, a noted AR builder, to overcome these problems. Bill's design narrows the freebore and has a leade angle that alows the 80 gr. SMK to touch the lands at a 2.465" OAL for single round feeding, yet still maintain excellent accuracy with a 69 gr. SMK loaded to an OAL of 2.260" for magazine feeding.
Hardly any of the big AR manufacturers use the .223 SAAMI chamber any more. Their standard offerings are normally stamped 5.56 and use the GI-spec chamber, while most of them are using the Wylde chamber,or a variation) for their varmint and other accuracy models, even if they're stamped .223!. Of course, many true custom AR 'smiths have their reamers cut to their own specific design and if you're getting into that you're best off discussing chamber specs directly with them. I highly recommend the Wylde chamber unless you're going for a full blown custom made for a specific purpose and a specific bullet style.
Im just looking to build a platform that can get me sub MOA accuracy at 100 yards. Rock River sells a NM stripped receiver set for 350 dollars. Do you happen to know If I can simply swap parts from this POI rifle into the RRA receivers? Someone from bushmaster informed me that the difference is in the location of the take-down pins, and the fact that I have a shortened bolt carrier and buffer system... but I am not sure if other differences would keep me from doing this swap. I believe all I would need are the stripped new receivers, a new bolt carrier and a standard buffer system and stock. Although, I might just keep it as is and buy a whole new rifle, otherwise I will be left with two seemingly useless stripped receivers for a no longer produced rifle.
Spotcheck_Billy
I don't know about parts interchangability between your PO and an RRA,or any other) standard AR. I think that it's an ill advised move. Keep your PO or sell it. Build your new AR using a selection of the parts that you believe will suit your purposes the best.
I have a Professional Ordnance R97s M4 variant. I got a good deal on this rifle and had to take the seller up o the offer. A few months later I somehow managed to crack the bolt. At this time I found out that the professional ordnance design used some strange chrome-moly alloy in their bolts which made them comparably weaker. They also used rounded bolt lugs versus the standard squared lugs on all other AR-15s. I had bushmaster swap my barrel, barrel insert and bolt to the standard variation. The other difference lies in the stock which is a quick disconnect. The rear buffer spring is actually housed inside a piece that screws into the rear of the lower receiver that the stock fits over. Some people have told me that this lower will not accept other uppers because of this. I was wondering if this is true or if anyone knows that other uppers would be able to be used with this lower receiver? I am new to black rifles. Thanks!
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