Anybody ONLY neck size cases?
- Thread starter thefitter
- Start date
Gary in MD
Gold $$ Contributor
I'm neck sizing only with Wilson dies in my 6mmai and my custom 222. I have lost count of how many times the brass has been reloaded with no problems and not bumping shoulders, probably 6 or so. Also have been neck sizing my 220 swift with a rcbs neck die, same thing....no problems and not bumping shoulders.
Gary
Gary
I have Lapua .223 brass that was new in 2006, has been FL sized twice when I went from a Savage to Tikka and another Tikka. Other than that, 97 pieces of brass have fired 3,698 rounds and only ever sized in Lee Collet Die. Same with my 6BR Norma brass; FL sized only when I get a new barrel.
Full-length sizing brass from a match chamber with a custom die that only moves the brass a thousandth or so is not the same as FL sizing factory brass. I'm still not sold on the relatively new practice of FL sizing all the time, but the guys who do it seem to be sold on it. It also seems to be related to how hot the loads are.
Long answer to your short question -- I'm one of those who neck-size only with Lee Collet Die in everything but my 30BR where I only have a custom die.
Full-length sizing brass from a match chamber with a custom die that only moves the brass a thousandth or so is not the same as FL sizing factory brass. I'm still not sold on the relatively new practice of FL sizing all the time, but the guys who do it seem to be sold on it. It also seems to be related to how hot the loads are.
Long answer to your short question -- I'm one of those who neck-size only with Lee Collet Die in everything but my 30BR where I only have a custom die.
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
Reed,ReedG said:
You must be running mild loads, 38.124 times you have loaded those .223 brass, that is pretty good, I have a piece of 6ppc brass that I have over 40 shots on it and have f/l sized it every time with a Harrells Vari base bushing die, Lapua brass if not hot rodded just seems to last for ever
I used to neck size my brass until I started BR shooting a few years ago I find with a properly fitted die my brass lasts longer f/l sizing then just neck only and definitely more accurate. I will say on factory rifles I have had very good luck using a Redding body die bumping the shoulder .001 and neck size with a Lee collet die.Wayne.
As you know, Wayne, I have a Vari-base die for my 6PPC, along with a Redding FL and Lee Collet die. As soon as the mud dries up a bit here, I will be at the range doing comparisons of the identical loads in the differently sized brass to see if I can get my mind around which is better at the target. Since the first day I saw one, I have endorsed the concept of the Lee Collet Die and believe it to be better able to give consistent neck tension than with a bushing die. This PPC is the first caliber I have ever had all the available dies to make a sensible comparison.
My .223 loads are of recent all with 40- to 55-gr. bullets over Varget. I have had several Savages with faster twists and shot 68- or 69-gr. bullets in this brass in those days. I have never lost a piece of Lapua brass to failure. Lots of my Winchester, Federal and IMI brass in .223 and .223AI have enlarged primer pockets but never yet with a Lapua.
To give as complete a picture as possible, also know that I anneal my brass after every five reloads, or sooner if I think they need it. Another thing I like about a properly adjusted Lee Collet Die is the feel you get when sizing the neck.
Spring is making headway here in the Northeast and I'm ready for a few days at the range!
My .223 loads are of recent all with 40- to 55-gr. bullets over Varget. I have had several Savages with faster twists and shot 68- or 69-gr. bullets in this brass in those days. I have never lost a piece of Lapua brass to failure. Lots of my Winchester, Federal and IMI brass in .223 and .223AI have enlarged primer pockets but never yet with a Lapua.
To give as complete a picture as possible, also know that I anneal my brass after every five reloads, or sooner if I think they need it. Another thing I like about a properly adjusted Lee Collet Die is the feel you get when sizing the neck.
Spring is making headway here in the Northeast and I'm ready for a few days at the range!
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
I resize necks on my 308s with a Lee Collet. I've played with bumping shoulders or FL sizing but at this point I'm getting all the accuracy I need for F-TR and reliable feeding with a collet sizer.
I'm getting close to buying an annealer, and if I do that I'll run every thing through a body die after they are annealed. (planning to start annealing at 5x)
I'm getting close to buying an annealer, and if I do that I'll run every thing through a body die after they are annealed. (planning to start annealing at 5x)
Thanks for all the replies!
I just started working with a new die and a new batch of brass, trying to get things dialed in. I wanted to set the die to bump the shoulder half a thousand which is half what I usually do. During the process I discovered to my surprise that a untouched once fired case chambered VERY easily. So I thought why am I resizing these at all?
This is something I enjoy about this hobby... always learning something new.
I just started working with a new die and a new batch of brass, trying to get things dialed in. I wanted to set the die to bump the shoulder half a thousand which is half what I usually do. During the process I discovered to my surprise that a untouched once fired case chambered VERY easily. So I thought why am I resizing these at all?
This is something I enjoy about this hobby... always learning something new.
Donovan, I have no experience of any kind shooting or loading for anything other than "point-blank" BR and I believe after several years on this forum that there is a difference in what works in the two disciplines.
I bought a 6 PPC (my first!) last summer and it has been a wonderful experience for me. A friend gave me 100 pcs. of Lapua brass, most loaded with Euber 66-gr. FBs and N133, that he had used in a previous Panda. In my BAT SV-actioned rig, the brass was just short of being "no-go". I had to force the bolt closed much harder than I wanted. Also, after further scrutiny, I found that the bullets were about .025-.028" into the lands. I fired 87 of those loads and got groups that would have won almost any match -- no kidding! Lots of "zeros" and "ones" in the many five-shot groups I fired.
This brass was then annealed, FL sized in a Redding die, loaded with the same load only with the bullets .015" into the lands, and shot good groups but nothing as consistent as with the poor-fitting too-long loads. We ran into lousy and cold weather, now transgressed into "mud season", and I have not been able to get to the range to continue this saga.
When we first hosted IBS BR matches at my range in 2004 (I think?) some guys were still shooting 6 PPC and I was amazed to see them literally "hammer" their bolts closed and open them with such a pronounced "click" it was almost a joke. Today I see lots of guys with whisper-smooth bolt closures and finger-lift openings with no "click". Unfortunately I cannot produce the data to prove either one of those styles better by looking at the targets.
I've heard some of those OTs say they shot their brass for one season or one barrel at tossed it. I think today, with good annealing machines available, the lifetime and useability of brass is much better. In my non-professional mind, the thing that has the most affect on consistency (and probably POI) is neck tension. It is the controlling factor in powder burn rate, pressure curve, bullet release, etc., and to me it's where the rubber meets the road.
Would be interested in hearing some of your experiences, Donovan.
ReedG
I bought a 6 PPC (my first!) last summer and it has been a wonderful experience for me. A friend gave me 100 pcs. of Lapua brass, most loaded with Euber 66-gr. FBs and N133, that he had used in a previous Panda. In my BAT SV-actioned rig, the brass was just short of being "no-go". I had to force the bolt closed much harder than I wanted. Also, after further scrutiny, I found that the bullets were about .025-.028" into the lands. I fired 87 of those loads and got groups that would have won almost any match -- no kidding! Lots of "zeros" and "ones" in the many five-shot groups I fired.
This brass was then annealed, FL sized in a Redding die, loaded with the same load only with the bullets .015" into the lands, and shot good groups but nothing as consistent as with the poor-fitting too-long loads. We ran into lousy and cold weather, now transgressed into "mud season", and I have not been able to get to the range to continue this saga.
When we first hosted IBS BR matches at my range in 2004 (I think?) some guys were still shooting 6 PPC and I was amazed to see them literally "hammer" their bolts closed and open them with such a pronounced "click" it was almost a joke. Today I see lots of guys with whisper-smooth bolt closures and finger-lift openings with no "click". Unfortunately I cannot produce the data to prove either one of those styles better by looking at the targets.
I've heard some of those OTs say they shot their brass for one season or one barrel at tossed it. I think today, with good annealing machines available, the lifetime and useability of brass is much better. In my non-professional mind, the thing that has the most affect on consistency (and probably POI) is neck tension. It is the controlling factor in powder burn rate, pressure curve, bullet release, etc., and to me it's where the rubber meets the road.
Would be interested in hearing some of your experiences, Donovan.
ReedG
I have been loading my .308 brass for several years now by just neck sizing with a Lee Collet Die. Just bought my second Lee Collet Die as the first one had some wear problems with the top bushing.
Loads are near max of Varget but no issues closing/lifting bolt. Anneal after every 5-6 load cycles and just keep on using the Lee Collet.
Wonder which will occur first, split neck/shoulder or hard bolt closing. So far neither.
FWIW, on of the shooters at my club claims an average of 40 loads with neck sizing only using Lapua brass before he just tosses it.
Loads are near max of Varget but no issues closing/lifting bolt. Anneal after every 5-6 load cycles and just keep on using the Lee Collet.
Wonder which will occur first, split neck/shoulder or hard bolt closing. So far neither.
FWIW, on of the shooters at my club claims an average of 40 loads with neck sizing only using Lapua brass before he just tosses it.
I have neck sized .223 brass that went 13 reloads with 26 grains of Varget before I had to bump the shoulder back. I have 6BR neck sized brass loaded with 30 and 31 grains N133 that have been reloaded 15 times and not been bumped yet. All Lapua brass and never have been annealed. Accuracy is still what it was when it was new.
Regarding 6PPC brass, Lester Bruno told me accuracy drops off after 10 reloads and he tosses it. Tony's book states that after you start getting the "click" to toss it as well, around 12 reloads. Wayne, you said you have 40 reloads on a 6PPC brass....how is the accruacy? What is everyone elses experience with their 6PPC brass?
Regarding 6PPC brass, Lester Bruno told me accuracy drops off after 10 reloads and he tosses it. Tony's book states that after you start getting the "click" to toss it as well, around 12 reloads. Wayne, you said you have 40 reloads on a 6PPC brass....how is the accruacy? What is everyone elses experience with their 6PPC brass?
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
Otter,Otter said:
From advice given by a friend on this forum I did my load development with that one piece of brass at the range, I used it 35 timed after the initial FF for three shot load development and groups after about shot 20 I went to five shot groups until 35 from 35 until now I have just used it for fouling and warm up and I would have to look to be sure but I think I am at 43 or 44 loadings with no signs of it stopping. My last 5 shot group measured .114 for me that is good as my best group to date with the rifle is .035 and the norm for me is closer to the .114 mark so for me the accuracy was good but for Lester or Tony that would be unacceptable, I definitely wouldn't argue with either one of there suggestions with all the accomplishments the two of them have
Wayne.
I have a Rem 700 in 243 Win for which I neck size only. I have used Remington, Norma, and Lapua a lot and have several seasons worth of competition on them. I also have other brass from Frontier, Winchester, PMC and maybe some others that have several firings on them.
Loads:
43.6 grains IMR 4350, Fed210M, Nosler 70gr Ballistic Tip
45.7 grains IMR 4831, Fed 210M, Nosler 70gr BT
31 grains IMR 3031, Fed 215, Nosler 80gr BT (moly,WS2, or BN coated)
All ladder tests are done on the same brass and neck sized too.
I've polished my chamber so the brass doesn't grip the walls and don't use what I think are really hot loads.
Loads:
43.6 grains IMR 4350, Fed210M, Nosler 70gr Ballistic Tip
45.7 grains IMR 4831, Fed 210M, Nosler 70gr BT
31 grains IMR 3031, Fed 215, Nosler 80gr BT (moly,WS2, or BN coated)
All ladder tests are done on the same brass and neck sized too.
I've polished my chamber so the brass doesn't grip the walls and don't use what I think are really hot loads.
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
Duke,DukeDuke said:
No secrets here,..... 6ppc in a Bat three lug 1.335 round glued in a Edge stock, 1:13.5 Krieger 20" long (I think) Jewell .2oz trigger. The load is from memory because I am not down at the loading room 29.5 grains of N-133, 68 grain fb berger, CCI 450 primer and Lapua brass, .004 neck tension, bullet seated about .012 into the lands, H322 worked almost as well with .002 neck tension, Federal 205M primer everything else the same.
Wayne.
ReedG said:
you know after spending the 40 bucks for a lee deluxe set for my .260 i think i am going to start using it again. i seemed to get better ammo from the collet die then i do now with redding comp bushing die and a forester micro seater.
crazy huh? 200$ vs 40 bucks and i acrtually think the lee works better.
now don't all you guys jump me for this comment, its just my findings for my guns and my reloading abilities.
i only neck size my brass. i usually got 6-10 firings with the collet die before i needed to bump the shulder or fl size. so far using the bushing die, i am on reload 4 and haven't needed to bump yet. my fl sizer almost never gets used.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
A couple of things. For a 6PPC, the most common powder used at matches, 133, likes a lot of neck tension, that would go out the window if cases were annealed. Also, absolutely none of the top shooters that I know of, including those that do not throw their brass away after a weekend, anneal. Make that three things. If you don't get annealing absolutely right, and identical from case to case, you will have brass that will last longer, but shoots worse. Oh, and one more thing, if your bolt lift isn't a problem, and you are shooting critters, and hitting them, keep neck sizing. Heck, do what works for you. Don't fix what isn't broke.
ReedG said:
Reed, A possible fly in the ointment on your testing.
Testing identical loads may leave you overlooking accuracy potential.
Its been my expierience in the PPC that loads for necksizing and FL are not the same.
For instance necksizing my gun shoots 29.6gns well.
FL sizing I need to jump to 29.8gns.
My theory on this is I'm using .2gns of powder force to reexpand that brass. Just a theory, no science.
Coupla caveats, I'm using X-Terminator and a Redding body die. Not a FL die specifically tailored to my chamber.
Hence theres a little more expansion required. I use it on every firing now.
So if you test your favorite NS load in FL brass and find a loss in accuracy don't be surprised.
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