Another opining "expert"!!

[Double Tap 45]

I led my cousin to Gunbroker and that led him to Bud's Gun Shop. Bud sold him a new Axis rifle in .243 Win with a scope for $400. This is a first deer rifle for a 13 and 15 year old pair of brothers. I did not want them to start with a .30-06 (the "expert's" minimum suggestion) or even a .308. The older brother is as big as his Dad but the younger less so but growing.

To get maximum field experience I told him about my '68 Sako Forester in that caliber and how scary accurate it is with the 70 grain Ballistic Tips on varmints and the 85gr. Barnes TSX on deer. I mean almost one hole at 100 yards with the varmint load and about .8" with the TSX.

He was tempted to exchange it for a .270 (which is one of my favorite calibers) but for NY State, New England and most of PA WHERE do you need a .270 for deer? MAYBE bear but I would take a .358 Win if I could find one or my Whelen.

Too many people talk a lot of shinola today. I think if all the deer knocked dead with a .243, .257 Roberts or .250 Savage all stood up there'd be little room for trees.

Ray

 

[Double Tap 45]

OOPS!! I forgot. I also pointed out that to gain experience in shooting at GAME rather than paper we could all go upstate and shoot chucks together without needed a specialized varmint rig. The most I'd buy would be a good bipod (Harris?) and that's it. The scope STAYS on 4.5x but CAN go to 14x for longer shots on chucks. NICE Leupold VX-3L 56mm. Sits lower on the same rings as my old 50mm and with more clearance. AMAZING glass.

Ray

 

[hogpatrol]

Ray, "overkill" in the hunting game is an understatement.

 

[chino1969]

Ray,
Too many people opt for more killing power in lieu of skill. A .243 in the hands of a rifleman will put down any white tail in the U.S.. If you think you need more power than that you should spend more time shooting.

 

[Double Tap 45]

Basically what I told him. I said we could go in for a bulk order on the standard 100 gr. flat base to just shoot with. Then I said buy ONE box each of,say, Federal Vital Shok, Horndady Superformance and Winchester Supreme Elite and see what HIS rifle digests the best. Then shoot the rest of the other stuff and buy 3 boxes from the same lot of the ammo that groups best. Same for varmint loads. He is NOT going to handload so with the fine factory ammo today he won't be ill-served.

As for moi, I LOVE shooting my old Sako. Forty-three years old and will still put 5 Nosler 70gr. Ballistic tip varmint round in one hole at 50 and .6" at 100. WHY handload for the amount I'm going to shoot?

Ray

 

[Greg110]

I strongly agree with all you about EVERYTHING! I hunt with my grandad''s 7x57 of about 1930 vintage. Fast twist only shoots Fed 175RN, but groups right at 1". 1 shot=1dead deer.

 

[jraney]

had this discussion earlier today and a coworker said i would rather have tomuch gun than not enough. i just left it at that, (I) think if you are a responsible hunter then you will be smaert enough to practice and only take the shot you know is the best. with that said shot placement is everything. i would take a light kicking .22 caliber any day over something bigger just for the extra confidence. hope that make sense to you all cuase i am having trouble following myself.

 

[Double Tap 45]

If I were hunting out West for sheep and mule deer I'd upgrade to a 7mm-08 only because the mid weight bullets like 140-160 grains in a boat tail shape handle tricky winds better and the 7mm is one of the most ballistically efficient bullets going.

As for deer up to 250lbs. I agree that a GOOD bullet placed right from a .243Win is a killer. I've seen the 85 grain TSX from Barnes flatten a deer at 280 yards that passed though but got caught in the far side shoulder. Weighed 83grains when removed. That deer jumped tried to run and piled up 40 yards later. When we got to him he was deader than Judas Iscariot. One well-place shot from an "inadequate" .243Win. Hmmmm.

Tom Gresham chimed in and assured my cuz that he had a more than adequate gun for his boys to hunt deer with. I am waiting for him to give me a vacation schedule so we can use the old Lyman Range in CT so at least we can sight in 1" high at 100 yards. With that zero he's good to 200 yards + and won't need a chiropractor from carrying and shooting some goldurned cannon.

Ray from Bloombergia

 

[Double Tap 45]

When I DO need something a little bigger say. for Maine moose or red stag, I switch to a .35Whelen which is also badmouthed in many circles. I call it the "non-magnum magnum".

Ray

 

[Cowboy Tom]

Where I live in Washington state is smack dab in the middle of one of the largest mule deer herds in the west. Lots of deer shot around here and I can say that the 243 is one of the more common calibers around here (quite a few 6mm Rems as well) I also know indians who shoot 20+ deer a year to feed their extended families and many of them shoot 243's as well. Somewhere in the distant past it was determined that a 250lb mule deer was tough to kill. It simply aint so. Put a premium 24 cal bullet in the right spot and the game is over.

 

[2506]

It don't even take a premium bullet to do in deer with a 243. I used to hand load the 100 gr Remington CL with a case full of AA3100 and in two different 243 Win rifles it would shoot one hole groups at 100 and I killed a bunch of deer out to a little over 300 yards and never had to shoot one twice. The average deer hunter I run into is usually way over gunned. It don't take a 300 mag to kill a deer.

 

[M700]

Yup, my son and I usually hunt deer with his 6mm Rem and my .25-06, and those two little rifles do just fine.

For some reason this year he decided to use an old .30-06, and I hauled out the .308 Win. Those rifles did just fine too. Deer are pretty easy to drop with a well placed shot from just about any centerfire rifle. I've seen no difference in killing power between the .243 & 6mm Rem, and the bigger .30-06 and even .300 mags.

Folks tell me that the big rifles & magnums kill quicker. I have a hard time imagining quicker than "instant" ...

The big rifles do leave an impressive exit wound. No doubt.

 

[Double Tap 45]

I heard Tom Gresham on the 6mm Remington and he explained that Remington used a twist rate for the rifle that was not very well suited to the 100 grain bullets and that was why a very good cartridge lost out to the .243Win. Sounds plausible, but then why not rework the RIFLE instead of dropping the whole idea?

My cousin in DE has had an old Remington Model 760 pump in .243 for over 30 years and the same box of cartridges sighted it in and accounted for several deer with couple still left. One shot was 200 yards across a pond on somebody's farm. He had a doe permit and that fat juicy doe collapsed like a dynamited building.

Ray from Bloombergia

 

[M700]

There's a little more to that story.

Remington introduced the cartridge as the ".244" with a slow rate of twist.

Way back in the 1960's they changed it to the 6mm Remington, with a twist fast enough to stabilize the 100's and even the 105 Speer. It's stayed fast enough all these years. Amazingly, shooters still cling to the "problem" with the old slow twist .244 as a reason to prefer Winchester's .243 cartridge instead of the 6mm. Absolutely amazing, since many of these shooters weren't even born when the issue was fixed by Remington.

FWIW, Guy

 

[NorCalMikie]

Beware of the man with "one gun". My bet is he knows how to shoot it. Lots of meat even taken with the .223. It's called shot placement.

 

[Double Tap 45]

Native hunters like smaller caliber rifles and often hunt seals with the .223 because the ammo is cheap, the guns are light and so is the recoil. Inuits are NOT of Viking proportions. They like simple things that work. A .223 head shot on a seal is MEAT and hide. That's what counts when you are a real subsistence hunter.

I have hear that some like the .243 because if they live near a caribou route that is all the gun those little guys need. They stalk CLOSE and ;pick their shots well. They have to because Cabela's doesn't have a store on the tundra.

I talked to Tom in an e-mail and he assured me that a lot of wily Cajuns like the .243 or 6mm for deer because the shots are rarely long and the guns have light mass as well as recoil which translates into less fatigue and better shooting. They can also use the lighter bullets for local varmints and have dispatched a few pesky gators with them also. If a .22LR in a brain shot can kill a 6' gator I think a .243 with a solid 100 grainer will do likewise on a larger one.

Ray from Bloombergia

 

[dreever]

Been more deer killed with the old 30-30 Winchester than anything else. I had a Marlin lever action 35 Remington when I was a teenager that kicked like a mule, but was a fantastic brush gun here in Pennsylvania.

Danny

 

[Browningguy]

I'll agree that a .243 is enough gun for any whitetail deer that ever lived. But that sure would take the fun out of gun buying if my wife found out.

 

[Double Tap 45]

Tom Gresham (aka The Great Enabler) would say buy your wife a .243 and get her in a women's outdoors program and let her go hunting with the ladies! Then she'll understand that you really DO need a number of gun just like you need 14 clubs for a regulation set. Just a thought. The danger has been shown that a lot of women start wanting their own gun room! <G>

Ray from Bloombergia

 

[ChrisNZ]

...

Remington introduced the cartridge as the ".244" with a slow rate of twist.

.... they changed it to the 6mm Remington, with a twist fast enough to stabilize the 100's ..

Quite correct.

A while ago, I bought as a gift to my nephew a "6mm Rem" M98, well that was what was engraved on the barrel.
Grabbed a bag of 6Rem brass, loaded some 105s up and off to the BR range. I could barely keep it on the A4 target at 100yds. A cleaning rod soon revealed it was a slow twist barrel so I begged some 85gr Speer SPBTs and the first group with these was into 3/4" despite a horrible trigger.

You can understand why the .243Win quickly grabbed the market when the .244 wouldn't shoot heavier bullets.

Chris-NZ