• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.

Another 223 1-6 twist question

Hey guys. I ran a 223 issf chamber in a 30” FTR rifle and shot the Sierra 90gr matchkings with great success at 2825fps even at sea level and cooler air temps. I am looking to build a shorter (22”) barreled 223 as a prs trainer and general fun gun and I want to use the same chamber specs and bullets. The question I have is this: with the shorter barrel and Lowe velocities should I move to a 1-6” twist barrel to help keep stability up on the bullet? You thoughts and opinions are appreciated. Thanks guy!
Mason
 
Hey guys. I ran a 223 issf chamber in a 30” FTR rifle and shot the Sierra 90gr matchkings with great success at 2825fps even at sea level and cooler air temps. I am looking to build a shorter (22”) barreled 223 as a prs trainer and general fun gun and I want to use the same chamber specs and bullets. The question I have is this: with the shorter barrel and Lowe velocities should I move to a 1-6” twist barrel to help keep stability up on the bullet? You thoughts and opinions are appreciated. Thanks guy!
Mason


What mag allows you to seat them far enough out to use as a trainer? Or do you plan to single load?

FYI, even shooting them about 2600ish, a 1:7 seems to still do fine at MR.
 
With that twist, I would give the new 95 smk a try and go with a 3 groove with canted or radial rifling.
I would like to try the new 95gr SMK. Funny you say a three groove because when I bought my last barrel blank from Benchmark the recommended away from the 3 groove 1-7 twist in favor of the 6 groove 1-7 twist. They said that the 3 groove would cause more distortion of the bullet. Didn't quite make sense to me, but the 6 groove shot just fine.
 
I would like to try the new 95gr SMK. Funny you say a three groove because when I bought my last barrel blank from Benchmark the recommended away from the 3 groove 1-7 twist in favor of the 6 groove 1-7 twist. They said that the 3 groove would cause more distortion of the bullet. Didn't quite make sense to me, but the 6 groove shot just fine.


Really? Well, I guess they would know. They do make some awesome barrels!
 
You'll want at least .100 more throat for the 95s. I added .135 and seat the bullets here. Rough guess is that Im about a .310-.315 throat now.

20180227_202352.jpg
 
The simplest answer to your question is to use Berger's twist rate calculator and see where various twist rates will put you in the approximate velocity range you expect out of the shorter barrel. If this is a "practice" rifle, it may not be necessary to use a faster twist barrel to wring every last possible shred of BC out of the bullet (i.e. an Sg of 1.5 or greater). If the bullet exits the bore with an Sg of approximately 1.1 or better, it probably won't keyhole until it slows sufficiently downrange, if even then. Anywhere in the Sg = 1.3 to 1.4 range will provide plenty of stability, even if you aren't netting the full intrinsic BC of the bullet.

There is a big difference between gyroscopic stability and obtaining the full inherent BC of the bullet. The first of these obviously requires an Sg of greater than 1.0 to maintain stability even at short range. However, rotational velocity of bullets slows far less than linear velocity. As such, bullet gyroscopic stability actually increases as the distance increases, right up until the point the bullet slows to trans-sonic and below, or is overcome by dynamic instability.

Spinning a bullet fast enough to obtain the full intrinsic BC is really only necessary if you're actually competing with the rifle and need to get every bit of performance possible. In the case of heavy .224 bullets, the risk of jacket failure increases significantly as the twist rate increases. Relative to some other calibers, a 7.0-twist is actually quite fast and can put significant strain on the jacket. The .224 bullets in the 90-95 gr range are especially susceptible to this issue because they generally have very long bearing surfaces relative to lighter, shorter bullets. Running the 90 VLDs at 2820 to 2850 fps, there seems to be a very good correlation to observed jacket failures and barrel twist rates. As long as you stay at 7.0-twist, there is rarely an issue. Those that are using 6.8-, 6.7-, or 6.5-twist barrels at those velocities have noticed a higher rate of failure. That basically translates to a problem running the 90 VLDs over about 300K RPM. Even in F-TR midrange competition, where you really need to get every bit of performance out of a .223 to run with .308s shooting much higher BC pills, a single jacket failure is not worth the teeny little bit of BC you get in return. One jacket failure and you're out of the match...period.

For a practice rifle, I'd be looking at what twist rate is predicted to give you an Sg of around 1.3 to 1.4 at your expected velocities, at the location(s) you shoot most often. That should be plenty for practice purposes. For example, a 90 VLD at 2600 fps from a 7.0-twist barrel is predicted to have an Sg of 1.38 (65 degrees, 500 ft elevation), which is plenty. The only thing you would ever notice would be slightly greater wind deflection at distances past 300-500 yd, which shouldn't be a deal-breaker.
 
Hey guys. I ran a 223 issf chamber in a 30” FTR rifle and shot the Sierra 90gr matchkings with great success at 2825fps even at sea level and cooler air temps. I am looking to build a shorter (22”) barreled 223 as a prs trainer and general fun gun and I want to use the same chamber specs and bullets. The question I have is this: with the shorter barrel and Lowe velocities should I move to a 1-6” twist barrel to help keep stability up on the bullet? You thoughts and opinions are appreciated. Thanks guy!
Mason
No.
A 7 twist will shoot the 90 SMK just fine, even out of a 20" AR15 doing 2450fps.
However, it won't do a 90 Berger VLD.
 
I had used the berger stability calculator before but I didn’t have any 90gr sierras with me to enter in their data, so I used he berger 90gr vld. It showed an SG of 1.3x at 2600 fps 40 degree temp and sea level. This morning I used the same input values except that I used the BC and length of the Sierra. Sg moves up to 1.49 in the worst case. Guess I’ll keep the 1-7 twist.
 
The simplest answer to your question is to use Berger's twist rate calculator and see where various twist rates will put you in the approximate velocity range you expect out of the shorter barrel. If this is a "practice" rifle, it may not be necessary to use a faster twist barrel to wring every last possible shred of BC out of the bullet (i.e. an Sg of 1.5 or greater). If the bullet exits the bore with an Sg of approximately 1.1 or better, it probably won't keyhole until it slows sufficiently downrange, if even then. Anywhere in the Sg = 1.3 to 1.4 range will provide plenty of stability, even if you aren't netting the full intrinsic BC of the bullet.

There is a big difference between gyroscopic stability and obtaining the full inherent BC of the bullet. The first of these obviously requires an Sg of greater than 1.0 to maintain stability even at short range. However, rotational velocity of bullets slows far less than linear velocity. As such, bullet gyroscopic stability actually increases as the distance increases, right up until the point the bullet slows to trans-sonic and below, or is overcome by dynamic instability.

Spinning a bullet fast enough to obtain the full intrinsic BC is really only necessary if you're actually competing with the rifle and need to get every bit of performance possible. In the case of heavy .224 bullets, the risk of jacket failure increases significantly as the twist rate increases. Relative to some other calibers, a 7.0-twist is actually quite fast and can put significant strain on the jacket. The .224 bullets in the 90-95 gr range are especially susceptible to this issue because they generally have very long bearing surfaces relative to lighter, shorter bullets. Running the 90 VLDs at 2820 to 2850 fps, there seems to be a very good correlation to observed jacket failures and barrel twist rates. As long as you stay at 7.0-twist, there is rarely an issue. Those that are using 6.8-, 6.7-, or 6.5-twist barrels at those velocities have noticed a higher rate of failure. That basically translates to a problem running the 90 VLDs over about 300K RPM. Even in F-TR midrange competition, where you really need to get every bit of performance out of a .223 to run with .308s shooting much higher BC pills, a single jacket failure is not worth the teeny little bit of BC you get in return. One jacket failure and you're out of the match...period.

For a practice rifle, I'd be looking at what twist rate is predicted to give you an Sg of around 1.3 to 1.4 at your expected velocities, at the location(s) you shoot most often. That should be plenty for practice purposes. For example, a 90 VLD at 2600 fps from a 7.0-twist barrel is predicted to have an Sg of 1.38 (65 degrees, 500 ft elevation), which is plenty. The only thing you would ever notice would be slightly greater wind deflection at distances past 300-500 yd, which shouldn't be a deal-breaker.
Plus one on this! And always be sure to enter the ALTITUDE(s) you will be shooting at in the Berger Twist Rate Calculator ! : http://www.bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/.
 
I have a 22in 8 twist tac trainer and it shoots 75 Amax well out to 1000yd if you're open to options. Standard chamber so mag feed is no sweat. It can be frustrating in the wind over 750yd. Spotting your misses at longer range is challenging vs larger bore bullets but it really is fun to shoot.
 
I SHOOT A 1/7 TWIST WITH .139 FREEBORE 90GR VLD'S MAKES SOME PRETTY GROUPS FORSURE FROM MY 30'' X-CALIBER BARREL IN A 223 ACKLEY
 

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Forum statistics

Threads
165,920
Messages
2,206,281
Members
79,217
Latest member
NF1E
Back
Top