Annealing

[Alex Wheeler]

I want to start a thread to share our experiences with annealing good and bad. Be specific on your data please. 2 years ago I shot the same rifle in LG and HG 1000yd Br. In HG I annealed and LG I didnt. Load was 105 hybrids, RL15, and cci 450s. Neck tension was close to .004". HG agged out much better. Most was due to having better conditions but I did notice in good conditions the annealed brass seamed to shoot slightly better. I used a bench source and aimed both torches at the neck shoulder junction. I set the flame point to about 1" and kept it 1/4" from the neck. I want to see the flame that bounces off the neck to start to turn orange just as the case is leaving the flame. That worked for me. I would use a stiff nylon brush inside the neck after sizing, thats it, no other case cleaning. I am curious to others experiences with different powders and methods.

 

[ShootDots]

I have a BenchSource annealing machine. For Y-E-A-R-S I did it by hand! But I never noticed any difference in accuracy from "hand" to the consistency of a "machine". It could have been that I got REALLY good at it by hand. But more to your point. I have found that if you fire the cases and do not anneal, it does not take long and you can "feel" a vast difference in the pressure used to seat the bullets. However, more importantly, you can easily f-e-e-l the various amounts of pressure it takes to seat the bullets. This has translated into unacceptable amounts of vertical, especially at 1000 yards. You DO notice it at 600 and even 300, but not to the degree you do at 1000, or at least that is my experience.

I have noticed that by turning ALL my necks, no matter the cartridge, to 12K neck wall thickness, coupled with consistent annealing practices, makes the seating of the bullet like smooooth butter! Some of the benchresters turn their necks walls down very thin. This M-A-Y aide in the lessening of the need to anneal either as often or possibly not at all. I do not know, as I don't turn my necks that thin..

As far as the flame goes, the "inner points" of the blue flame are maybe 3/4" away from the neck. I "point" those points just slightly above the neck shoulder junction and turn my lights off. Once I see the necks begin to turn red, they pass on thru and the next one takes it's place. Once you turn the lights on, you can barely make out the neck getting red and you have to L-O-O-k for it.

 

[suberjc]

Wow Ben, I only wish I could see that. I have a rare type of red/green color blindness. So while I can see a copper head coiled up in a pile of leaves (Just looks like a copper head coiled up in a pile of leaves), I can't see the necks glow red.
Both are disturbing. None of my family will walk in the woods with me or let me anneal their brass. LOL I have to use the Tempilaq.

 

[ShootDots]

Wow Ben, I only wish I could see that. I have a rare type of red/green color blindness. So while I can see a copper head coiled up in a pile of leaves (Just looks like a copper head coiled up in a pile of leaves), I can't see the necks glow red.
Both are disturbing. None of my family will walk in the woods with me or let me anneal their brass. LOL I have to use the Tempilaq.

I did not know you had some colorblindness! But I think you may be on the good side of this one>>>to be able to see a pit-viper and stay away is considerably more important that "seeing-red"! LOL!!!

 

[DJSBRS]

Here are some of my thoughts.

I started annealing my own brass in the late 1990's. I have been shooting tens of thousands of rounds in the prairie dog fields and I found the necks getting hard and splitting and NOT consistent in bullet seating or resizing.

I purchased one of the first Brass O-Matic annealing machines. Setting up and annealing many types and size brass taught me that not all brass anneals exactly the same. The general metal makeup including size and thickness along with the amount of different metals in that specific piece of brass determines what methodology is used to proper anneal. Annealing is relaxing the harden brass to reshape to a reasonable amount of resizing without failure.

Upon firing, the annealed neck and shoulder allows the neck to expand and seal by holding against the neck wall until the gases have left the chamber throat. The shoulder expands to the chamber wall upon firing and then relaxes so it can be extracted. Relaxed brass will respond accordingly. Harden brass develops memory and resist continued sizing and expansion with inconsistency.

I watch every piece I anneal to make sure the makeup and proper annealing is obtained and I can pick out inferior individual pieces of brass. I prefer the annealing process to be completed just as soon as possible after the sweat ring finds the bottom of the case during the annealing process.

There are many methods to anneal and most meet the objective. I assure you that my method changes due to the make up and size of the brass I am annealing. Annealing 22 Hornet or 338 Lapua requires total different setups and required time to complete. I have annealed some really different cases which include black powder cartridges to African big game cartridges. The process is the same, but the method changes considerably.

I recommend annealing first and then utilize your preferred case prep sequence next. Anything one does to the brass effects it's behavior either negatively or positive.

Each brand of brass behave differently than the other when being annealed. I test a piece of that caliber brass to setup on by putting the flames pointed at the shoulder and watch the heat go up the neck and down just past the shoulder until it reaches the required heat to be properly annealed and relaxed. How long and how close the flames depends on individual preference and that particular batch that I am working on. Only experience can tell you how your brass responds to the heat you are providing with the combination of heat and time.

How often do you anneal depends on your required expectation for consistency and precision results. A deer or prairie dog does not know if they were harvested with a half inch shot placement variance.

Brass behavior is critical for competitive results with chambering and extraction smoothness to not interrupt the rifle in the bags while cycling during the course of fire.

Just my .02¢ worth.

DJ
DJ's Brass Service
205-461-4680

 

[suberjc]

Thanks DJ. Verification is a wonderful thing. It's nice to hear from someone who knows. I have both a benchsource and the Giraud. I use the Giraud more frequently because I can load them and don't have to continuously feed them. I DO however watch every single piece go through. The Giraud is slower because it has a single torch but it appears to be very precise and basically, I just enjoy watching it work. Mr Dorris's machine is excellent as well and just as precise and as I said, faster. My wife and I are both F-Shooters so I anneal quite a bit (after every firing). I've done quite a bit of testing and reloaded ammunition is just more consistently accurate using freshly annealed cases. I would say that "your mileage may vary" but physics is physics.

 

[Cburlette]

I'm curious to know if anyone thinks their is a benefit to annealing new brass? I know they anneal during the manufacturing process, but is it also the last step before the brass heads out the door? Or do they do a neck forming step after annealing and ship it out hardened?

Thanks
Craig

 

[suberjc]

I neck my lapua 6.5X47 brass down to 6 so I do mine as a accuracy precaution. I really don't know if I need to but I've never seen following a prescribed regimen hurt anyone's shooting. Whatever you decide to do, do it consistently

 

[Mhall]

Anything to be more consistent must help. One thing is true, with the price of brass today I get a warm feeling inside knowing I am doing the most I can to prolong the life of it. I have found annealed brass to have very consistent bullet tension (and that does affect accuracy).

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I guess the point of the question was does your gun shoot smaller groups annealed or un annealed? Hopefully we are testing this and not assuming that annealing will always reduce group size.
Thanks

 

[lawrence97]

I tested annealed vs not annealed at 1000 and the groups looked roughly the same. I do like the fact that the freshly annealed brass shoulder bumps back a lot easier and more consistently. With 2-3 firings on the brass and not annealing, bumping the shoulders is a bit harder and not as consistent.
Maybe if someone could post actual pics of groups using annealed and non annealed !

 

[22DASHER]

I started annealing a couple years ago when I was having trouble with one of my 22 Dashers at 600 yards. Gun shot lights out for 7-800 rounds, then opened up. Brass had 4-5 reloads on them and I had noticed a lot of inconsistent neck tension when seating. Anyways, picked up annealing and haven't looked back. After annealing the groups tightened right back up, in my side by side test. That was the only variable I changed, same load, cleaning routine and conditions.

 

[suberjc]

I'm not sure 1000 is the best test for accuracy improvement. It's a good distance to test your wind reading skill. I may be wrong but I would think that a shorter distance without as much of the other variables like wind and mirage would give a more precise measurement of the benefit of a single process addition/change like annealing. I'd probably try it at 300 if I hadn't already proved it to my own satisfaction. 1000 yards would be fine over time. The longer the distance the more testing/time required to get a reliable average. So at a thousand I'd guess 20 shots for about ten trips. 5 trips for 300 or one trip to the range for 100. Or could could do what I now do. Load em. Go to the 300 range and shoot em. Then say, "That's good enough, let's go to da match"

 

[Immike]

I built my own annealer, decided to go with time dependency instead of the flash scorch method. Mine is a water bath on a turntable with a soft flame over a 77 sec cycle that is mechanically timed with a set pressure soft flame. Once all calibrated with templique it's a turn it on and go now. It's slow but consistent. Yes, I use it for good reasons.

 

[jsuber]

I'm not sure 1000 is the best test for accuracy improvement. It's a good distance to test your wind reading skill. I may be wrong but I would think that a shorter distance without as much of the other variables like wind and mirage would give a more precise measurement of the benefit of a single process addition/change like annealing. I'd probably try it at 300 if I hadn't already proved it to my own satisfaction. 1000 yards would be fine over time. The longer the distance the more testing/time required to get a reliable average. So at a thousand I'd guess 20 shots for about ten trips. 5 trips for 300 or one trip to the range for 100. Or could could do what I now do. Load em. Go to the 300 range and shoot em. Then say, "That's good enough, let's go to da match"

Yeah, I run mine kinda slow too Mike. That's the reason I use the single torch system. Seeing as how it's gonna take awhile per pop anyway.

 

[Ringostar]

I was having a friend and fellow competitor anneal my brass every 3 firings. On the times that I didn't anneal, I could feel variations while seating. I didn't separate the rounds, and would get occasional vertical shots. I then borrowed a tighter bushing from him. It helped my loads, and I started shooting good enough to make long range master. We started talking about neck tension, and how critical it is for long range shooting. I have since bought a used Benchsource annealler, and started annealing every firing. Then started sizing with a mandrel. Now the rifle shoots X ring vertical. i would also have occasional rounds that were tighter chambering before the consistent annealing. It helps when trying to slightly bump your shoulders. YES I believe in annealing! I will still continue to sort and point bullets, but consistent brass is more important to long range shooting.

 

[Ironworker]

I annealed 40 cases(Lupua ) today in less then 10 minutes by hand. I stand a bunch of cases up on steel plate and then hold two propane torches in my hands couple inches away and count to 5 . Main concern is not getting them too hot. I was told if flame turns orange ,your over doing it.

 

[stansrifles]

I guess the point of the question was does your gun shoot smaller groups annealed or un annealed? Hopefully we are testing this and not assuming that annealing will always reduce group size.
Thanks

Alex here is what I found if I anneal I get groups an numbers more consistent.
Stan