i saw a video on annealing that they put some 750 temp in side the neck. after it reaches the right temp and cools do you have to run a brush in the neck to clean it? does the temp liquid leave any unwanted stuf in the neck? my necks are springing back after sizing from being to hard. that is why i am going to try to anneal some. i was thinking i need to aneal first then neck size. does this sound correct? this is for a 6mm br . thanks charles
annealing ?
- Thread starter 686
- Start date
From my experience, you will need to brush the neck a bit to remove the Tempilaq. Just try to use a very small amount of Tempilaq and it will scrub out very easily.
You may want to lube the necks with graphite for the first loading as well, as all the carbon will be removed for the most part and the graphite will help the bullets seat easily and may even give more consistent bullet pull for the first firing as well.
Here is a good article on annealing: http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html
Just make sure you don't go too far and overheat the brass. Practice on some junk first so you don't wreck your good stuff. I have had great results using tempilaq, so it should work for you as well.
If you need a way to spin the brass, one of the bits that go in a power screwdriver with a 1/4" square end to attach 1/4" drive sockets will work well in a drill or power screwdriver. Just use a 1/4"-drive 1/2" or 9/16" deep socket and the brass will fit right in. My 1/4" drive 1/2" Stanley deep socket fits a .308 case head perfectly. They work very well, as you just tip it down when your done heating and the case slides right out, simple and effective.
You may want to lube the necks with graphite for the first loading as well, as all the carbon will be removed for the most part and the graphite will help the bullets seat easily and may even give more consistent bullet pull for the first firing as well.
Here is a good article on annealing: http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html
Just make sure you don't go too far and overheat the brass. Practice on some junk first so you don't wreck your good stuff. I have had great results using tempilaq, so it should work for you as well.
If you need a way to spin the brass, one of the bits that go in a power screwdriver with a 1/4" square end to attach 1/4" drive sockets will work well in a drill or power screwdriver. Just use a 1/4"-drive 1/2" or 9/16" deep socket and the brass will fit right in. My 1/4" drive 1/2" Stanley deep socket fits a .308 case head perfectly. They work very well, as you just tip it down when your done heating and the case slides right out, simple and effective.
Yep, I've been using my trusty (and OLD) Milwaukee Hole Hog 1/2" drill to anneal cases for a couple of years now. First method was just to drop the case into the chuck (I still do this for neck turning) set to the right opening size, then heat & drop the case into a cardboard box.
Kinda affects the grease in the chuck though, so I went with the deep socket idea next.
(I have a variable AC power supply that let's me dial in the right speed with the drill trigger locked; this makes the job much more repeatable. For neck turning I prefer to use the trigger control to spin the drill.)
The socket acts as a heat sink protecting the case body from overheating. If the socket gets too hot to touch, run an ice cube over it for a few seconds while it's spinning. If you hold it pointed down the meltwater won't run inside the socket....
Choose a socket that's overly deep for the case you want to anneal, just wad up some aluminum foil & press into the socket to act as a depth stop.
I stopped using a cardboard box after one started to smoke one evening. Now I use my NECO sieve, set up on some spacers to allow air to circulate up and over the cooling cases.
Kinda affects the grease in the chuck though, so I went with the deep socket idea next.
(I have a variable AC power supply that let's me dial in the right speed with the drill trigger locked; this makes the job much more repeatable. For neck turning I prefer to use the trigger control to spin the drill.)
The socket acts as a heat sink protecting the case body from overheating. If the socket gets too hot to touch, run an ice cube over it for a few seconds while it's spinning. If you hold it pointed down the meltwater won't run inside the socket....
Choose a socket that's overly deep for the case you want to anneal, just wad up some aluminum foil & press into the socket to act as a depth stop.
I stopped using a cardboard box after one started to smoke one evening. Now I use my NECO sieve, set up on some spacers to allow air to circulate up and over the cooling cases.
The Lee cartridge length trimmer adapter to fit in a drill, works perfectly to turn the cartridges. I've "annealed" some of my cartridges this way, but being very conservative. Last week, I picked up some cartridges at the range to practice on with no worry about messing them up..
My concern about cartridge annealing is that there is no good measure on how well it is done. Those that anneal frequently don't really have an obvious problem to start with, so how do you know that they have done anything by "annealing"?
All the sources that I can find indicate that no significant annealing of cartridge brass is done at temperatures less than 800 F, unless you hold them there for several minutes, not seconds. Some internet articles are advocating annealing at 650 F or so. Don't think it will happen...
My thinking, although I have yet to prove it to myself is that the most accurate indication of proper annealing temperature is the visible red glow in a darkened room. My conclusions on the first try of "doing it in the dark", and checking temperatures with an 800 F tempilstick, is that the brass starts to visibly look red well below 800 F. I have yet to determine how red it should look at 800 F. My practice case for the first test was a 270 WSM. That thing really sucks up the heat, and I had to hold a good blue propane flame on it for much more than a few seconds to get it even close to 800 F.
This is a work in progress for me, but I'm sure a reliable method based on visible red glow can be used to properly anneal cases.
My concern about cartridge annealing is that there is no good measure on how well it is done. Those that anneal frequently don't really have an obvious problem to start with, so how do you know that they have done anything by "annealing"?
All the sources that I can find indicate that no significant annealing of cartridge brass is done at temperatures less than 800 F, unless you hold them there for several minutes, not seconds. Some internet articles are advocating annealing at 650 F or so. Don't think it will happen...
My thinking, although I have yet to prove it to myself is that the most accurate indication of proper annealing temperature is the visible red glow in a darkened room. My conclusions on the first try of "doing it in the dark", and checking temperatures with an 800 F tempilstick, is that the brass starts to visibly look red well below 800 F. I have yet to determine how red it should look at 800 F. My practice case for the first test was a 270 WSM. That thing really sucks up the heat, and I had to hold a good blue propane flame on it for much more than a few seconds to get it even close to 800 F.
This is a work in progress for me, but I'm sure a reliable method based on visible red glow can be used to properly anneal cases.
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
RonAKA,
I think you may be right but I also think there is a fine line between the start of the red glow when you have reached the correct temp to anneal and past the point of red glow when the case has been over annealed (ie. ruined) I as well have been playing around with this.I don't understand it very well I guess,where I work they anneal pistol cases in big rotary annealing ovens 550-650 deg for 20 -40 min depending on the case's,they never get hot enough to glow, there to hot to touch but not glowing by any means?
Wayne.
I think you may be right but I also think there is a fine line between the start of the red glow when you have reached the correct temp to anneal and past the point of red glow when the case has been over annealed (ie. ruined) I as well have been playing around with this.I don't understand it very well I guess,where I work they anneal pistol cases in big rotary annealing ovens 550-650 deg for 20 -40 min depending on the case's,they never get hot enough to glow, there to hot to touch but not glowing by any means?
Wayne.
RonAKA, there are many issues with using the Lee case holder while annealing. The first being that you need to srew the holder onto the lock stud, which is going to not only slow progress, but the case is also very hot and will easily burn you badly, and removing the cae will be a pain while trying to avoid being burned. Yes, you can wear a glove, but then you lose dexterity and it just slows you even more. The other issue is the Lee holder doesn't extend up the case like a socket, and the socket will shield the case body and head from heat and also act as a heat sink adding further protection to the case body and head.
I also feel the "red glow in a dark room" method is not the best to use, especially as you really have no true reading on how hot the brass is. When you are in a lighted room, you can use Tempilaq on the inside of the case head. 750 degree works well, as it will likely reach 800 before you can remove the torch, or at least that is the result I have. Another good tool is an infrared thermometer, as you can simply point it at the case neck and know instantly how hot it is, and this is nearly impossible in a dark room.
If you read the article in the link in my earlier post, it will explain annealing very thoroughly, and also gives a method with which to test it's effectiveness.
Here is a piece from the article that will help explain the temperature that is best used for annealing cartridge brass:
"The critical time and temperature at which the grain structure reforms into something suitable for case necks is 662 degrees (F) for some 15 minutes. A higher temperature, say from 750 to 800 degrees, will do the same job in a few seconds. If brass is allowed to reach temperatures higher than this (regardless of the time), it will be made irretrievably and irrevocably too soft.
Brass will begin to glow a faint orange at about 950 degrees (F). Even if the heating is stopped at a couple of hundred degrees below this temperature, the damage has been done--it will be too soft."
The info in the excerpt above is why I recommend 750 tempilaq, as it gives you enough heat to successfully anneal, yet it also leaves a buffer zone as well.
And as you can imagine, relying on a red glow is going to be unreliable at best. And when there are other options so much better suited to the task, why bother with archaic practices that are so far from ideal?
This is not intended to offend or insult anyone. It is simply my opinion based on the results of my experiences annealing and what has worked best for me.
I also feel the "red glow in a dark room" method is not the best to use, especially as you really have no true reading on how hot the brass is. When you are in a lighted room, you can use Tempilaq on the inside of the case head. 750 degree works well, as it will likely reach 800 before you can remove the torch, or at least that is the result I have. Another good tool is an infrared thermometer, as you can simply point it at the case neck and know instantly how hot it is, and this is nearly impossible in a dark room.
If you read the article in the link in my earlier post, it will explain annealing very thoroughly, and also gives a method with which to test it's effectiveness.
Here is a piece from the article that will help explain the temperature that is best used for annealing cartridge brass:
"The critical time and temperature at which the grain structure reforms into something suitable for case necks is 662 degrees (F) for some 15 minutes. A higher temperature, say from 750 to 800 degrees, will do the same job in a few seconds. If brass is allowed to reach temperatures higher than this (regardless of the time), it will be made irretrievably and irrevocably too soft.
Brass will begin to glow a faint orange at about 950 degrees (F). Even if the heating is stopped at a couple of hundred degrees below this temperature, the damage has been done--it will be too soft."
The info in the excerpt above is why I recommend 750 tempilaq, as it gives you enough heat to successfully anneal, yet it also leaves a buffer zone as well.
And as you can imagine, relying on a red glow is going to be unreliable at best. And when there are other options so much better suited to the task, why bother with archaic practices that are so far from ideal?
This is not intended to offend or insult anyone. It is simply my opinion based on the results of my experiences annealing and what has worked best for me.
i got out one on my 1/4" drive deep 1/2" sockets last night. i put a drill adapror on it to extend the holding length. my 6br & 7br cases put thr brake of thr sholder-body at flust with the top of the socket. i think i will put a nut or something in side the socket to rase the case about 1/4" . my tempilaq 750 and 450 should be here today. i to have tride the glow in the dark thing but it did not look like i knew what i was doing. to much guess work. i am thinking the tempilaq will make it more even and correct. the reason i ask about cleaning out the inside of the neck after annealing was i thought the tempilaq may leave something in the neck that would need to come out. now you are telling me that the annealing burns off the carbon on the inside of the neck leaving a different, more drag on the bullet feel. what do you that anneal every 3-4 shots do about the first firing after annealing? thr socket way should work for me as i may only anneal 500-700 per yr. thanks for all the help. charles
686
Use tinfoil as a previous poster suggested. Crush it into the socket at your preferred depth.
It will stay in the socket as you dump the finished case out. A nut will have you chasing it around constantly.
Annealing,brushing will remove most if not all the carbon from the neck. Also roughens the brass microscopically. For the first firing I brush the neck interior with Imperial dry graphite before loading. Even on brass thats sized without an expander this works nicely.
I started annealing in the dark to get the hang of it. Used scrap brass so I could ruin it at will.
Also bought a Temp Stick crayon. Used it for a few minutes and chucked it in the trash ;D
I would imagine the liquid is better. No need for it now anyway.
Use tinfoil as a previous poster suggested. Crush it into the socket at your preferred depth.
It will stay in the socket as you dump the finished case out. A nut will have you chasing it around constantly.
Annealing,brushing will remove most if not all the carbon from the neck. Also roughens the brass microscopically. For the first firing I brush the neck interior with Imperial dry graphite before loading. Even on brass thats sized without an expander this works nicely.
I started annealing in the dark to get the hang of it. Used scrap brass so I could ruin it at will.
Also bought a Temp Stick crayon. Used it for a few minutes and chucked it in the trash ;D
I would imagine the liquid is better. No need for it now anyway.
I invented a home made annealing machine out of an old turntable I picked up at the thrift store for about $5. I also got some old 33 1/3 RPM records at the time. I epoxied a metal pan about 2 1/2 inches deep and centered it to the top of 1 of the records; then centered a washer with the center hole (sized to just fit my case head) in the center of the pan and epoxied it also. Now I just mark a case a little ways down from the shoulder, with a magic marker, fill the pan with water to that depth, and set the case in there, spin the turntable, and apply heat to the case mouth for 8 seconds, then remove heat and let stand for 5 seconds and tip the case over in the water...Voila...home made annealer. You can all have a good belly laugh but it works for me.
I started annealing cases when I found I couldn't get a consistent shoulder bump with a given die setting. I theorized that the relative hardness of each brass case was different enough that each responded differently, resulting in a different degree of spring-back.
Same thing with neck sizing: un-annealed cases would invariably produce differences in neck tension when re-sized with the same bushing, even with turned necks.
I ruined a goodly number of cases at first by getting them to glow brightly when heated. None that I shoot are larger than 6.5x284 & I don't shoot those much anymore. Most are 6mm of various kinds. They all seem to take a five-or-six-count with the shoulder / neck held spinning just at the point of the brighter blue, inner propane torch flame to come out uniformly sized when I get to that stage.
To me results are the most convincing indicator of sufficient heating to anneal. I tried the crayons & gave up. Never tried the liquid, but again my results now yield satisfactory results: I can reload cases until the primers fall out if I anneal every second or third firing. Thicker necks seem to behave better if done more frequently.
Case failure to date (1 - 6mm) was a lengthwise split in one case body out of several thousand I've annealed & then fired, eight or more times for Palma brass.
I've read some post by reliable individuals that indicate air cooling works best for brass. I know it works for me & that I don't have to wait for cases to dry.
As for tumbling pistol brass in heated ovens to anneal, I won't comment. Those work at far lower pressures than most modern rifle cartridges. I'd be very afraid of case heads being made too soft from this kind of operation, and never found annealing necessary for pistol brass anyway.
Same thing with neck sizing: un-annealed cases would invariably produce differences in neck tension when re-sized with the same bushing, even with turned necks.
I ruined a goodly number of cases at first by getting them to glow brightly when heated. None that I shoot are larger than 6.5x284 & I don't shoot those much anymore. Most are 6mm of various kinds. They all seem to take a five-or-six-count with the shoulder / neck held spinning just at the point of the brighter blue, inner propane torch flame to come out uniformly sized when I get to that stage.
To me results are the most convincing indicator of sufficient heating to anneal. I tried the crayons & gave up. Never tried the liquid, but again my results now yield satisfactory results: I can reload cases until the primers fall out if I anneal every second or third firing. Thicker necks seem to behave better if done more frequently.
Case failure to date (1 - 6mm) was a lengthwise split in one case body out of several thousand I've annealed & then fired, eight or more times for Palma brass.
I've read some post by reliable individuals that indicate air cooling works best for brass. I know it works for me & that I don't have to wait for cases to dry.
As for tumbling pistol brass in heated ovens to anneal, I won't comment. Those work at far lower pressures than most modern rifle cartridges. I'd be very afraid of case heads being made too soft from this kind of operation, and never found annealing necessary for pistol brass anyway.
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
spclark,
I was just making comment on what the company I work for does on factory unfired new pistol brass before you the customer recieve them. The parent Co. also owns Federal but I have never been to that plant to see what is done with the rifle brass,
But I am sure it goes through some type of annealing process.
Wayne.
I was just making comment on what the company I work for does on factory unfired new pistol brass before you the customer recieve them. The parent Co. also owns Federal but I have never been to that plant to see what is done with the rifle brass,
But I am sure it goes through some type of annealing process.
Wayne.
I understand better now the context in which you made your original comment.
The process of making functional cases - of any type - from raw brass stock entails more than one trip thru an annealing process. Careful process control is vital to making sure the final product is properly finished for hardness where it's needed, while also being of proper temper to hold it's shape and to hold a bullet.
Those of us who enjoy reloading (for any number of reasons) frequently exceed the expected lifetime our case manufacturers expect their products might endure. We owe it to ourselves to be aware of the limitations our practices may have if only to protect ourselves (and others who share our interests) from harm.
The process of making functional cases - of any type - from raw brass stock entails more than one trip thru an annealing process. Careful process control is vital to making sure the final product is properly finished for hardness where it's needed, while also being of proper temper to hold it's shape and to hold a bullet.
Those of us who enjoy reloading (for any number of reasons) frequently exceed the expected lifetime our case manufacturers expect their products might endure. We owe it to ourselves to be aware of the limitations our practices may have if only to protect ourselves (and others who share our interests) from harm.
If anyone is interested in a great tool for holding cases while annealing you should check this out. The tool holds cases via the primer pockets. www.customreloadingtools.com/custom_reloading_tools_002.htm
Wirelessguy2005 said:
While it's a nice tool, it too suffers from a few shortcomings. The lack of covering the case body leaves too much of the case exposed to heat, which could allow the heat to transfer farther down the body than desired. It also cost quite a bit for a case holder as well.
The deep socket is still one of the best, and probably lowest cost as well, options to hold a case while annealing. It shields the case body from heat and also acts as a heat sink to prevent the case from being excessively heated, adding a measure of safety not found even in some of the most expensive case holders. You don't have to attach it to the case in any way as you simply drop the case in and tip it upside down to drop the case out. They are available at most every hardware store and several other places as well, and many already have them anyway. I just think it's so easy to use and costs so little that it's foolish to even consider buying another type of holder, unless you go all out and buy an annealing machine.
Thats an interesting opinion. I have a few questions after reading your reply. If heat transfers down the brass with it being exposed why do most annealing machines leave the brass exposed? In my opinion the only way to prove that the heat is transferring down the brass during annealing would be to use the lower temp tempilac on the lower part of the brass to measure the heat transfer. I think you will find that you don't get near the heat transfer that most would think. Does $30 really seem expensive for quality product made of stainless steel? Keep in mind that the lesser quality hornady kit sells for around $50 - $60.
Kenny474 said:
Wireless
No offense but I have to side with Kenny. In my area we have el cheapo stores that will sell a 8pc set of 1/4"deep dish sockets for $8. Choose the ones that fit your brass and give the rest to someone you despise or break them yourself ;D
The product you linked to is probably the next best thing. While a deep dish offers protection from the flame it can get very hot if your running through lots of brass. I used to buy into the heatsink theory but no longer. For average use I say a DD socket can't be beat. Your product may be better if running huge amounts of brass. Either way its a small distinction.
I can run a DD socket at just about any angle I feel comfortable with. Not sure if a primer adapter can say the same.
If the Hornady set costs as much as you say it does, shame on them.
Either way the product you referenced is much better for the average shooter than one of the auto annealers for big $$$. I just can't imagine actually needing one of those babies. I shoot about 8000 rds a year and annealing is just a small part of the prep.
No offense but I have to side with Kenny. In my area we have el cheapo stores that will sell a 8pc set of 1/4"deep dish sockets for $8. Choose the ones that fit your brass and give the rest to someone you despise or break them yourself ;D
The product you linked to is probably the next best thing. While a deep dish offers protection from the flame it can get very hot if your running through lots of brass. I used to buy into the heatsink theory but no longer. For average use I say a DD socket can't be beat. Your product may be better if running huge amounts of brass. Either way its a small distinction.
I can run a DD socket at just about any angle I feel comfortable with. Not sure if a primer adapter can say the same.
If the Hornady set costs as much as you say it does, shame on them.
Either way the product you referenced is much better for the average shooter than one of the auto annealers for big $$$. I just can't imagine actually needing one of those babies. I shoot about 8000 rds a year and annealing is just a small part of the prep.
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